A question on Deck Penetration

[eds27]

Hi.
I am kind of new to blackjack.

One of the things I don't understand is why land based casinos offer such penetrations as 70%, 75%, 80%, 85%.
The higher the penetration the higher the chances for the player to take advantage over the casino so, if you were a casino, why offer penetration?.
Obviously it is not done to atract counter since casino do not want counter to take away their money. On the other hand, regular people with no idea about blackjack will continue playing wether they offer a good penetration or not. So my question stands.
¿why offer penetration? ¿why not shuffle after a couple of hands, get rid of counters and always have the advantage?...

Thanks.

 

[Mikeaber]

Hi.
I am kind of new to blackjack.

One of the things I don't understand is why land based casinos offer such penetrations as 70%, 75%, 80%, 85%.
The higher the penetration the higher the chances for the player to take advantage over the casino so, if you were a casino, why offer penetration?.
Obviously it is not done to atract counter since casino do not want counter to take away their money. On the other hand, regular people with no idea about blackjack will continue playing wether they offer a good penetration or not. So my question stands.
¿why offer penetration? ¿why not shuffle after a couple of hands, get rid of counters and always have the advantage?...

Thanks.

You've pretty much figured it out "Eds27". Casinos do not "offer" penetration...they force it down our throats! There is only one reason besides lessening the card counter's advantage, that casinos establish penetration by inserting a cut card and that it so that they can insure that they do not run out of cards at the end of a shoe (or deck(s)) when dealing out the cards on the last hand.

California Club Downtown on Fremont in Las Vegas for example, does not use a cut card to establish the "stopping" point (penetration). It is arbitrary and left up to the dealer who might be instructed as to when to reshuffle. I'm talking about Double Deck games at CC.

Casino managers are greedy little things though. If they only dealt out a couple of hands on a Double Deck game...or 6-deck!....they would spend a lot more time shuffling than playing and if not playing, then they are not raking money from the losers at the table! It's a balancing act.

 

[TENNBEAR]

Block the counter with deck penetration

I do not feel that cardcounters, with the current blackjack rules, are a serious threat to the casino's blackjack profits. The gaming industry is a multi-billion dollar industry, and I am aware that there are proffessional gamblers who make their living at blackjack. I do not think there are enough cardcounters, making enough money to effect, the casinos bottom line. If the cardcounters were hurting profits they would simply make some rule changes to adjust their bottom line.
I think that the casino's biggest threat are each other, as they compete for the gamblers dollar. Therefore they have the rules liberal enough so that the typical recreational gambler can play and not be wiped-out in the first session. Allowing just enough slack in the rules for the serious advantage player to make a little money. So the next time you see that colledge kid split 4's against a dealers 10, remember it is because of players like him exist, keeping the casino's profits up, so that the rules allow the advantage player to exist.

 

[zengrifter]

Hi.
I am kind of new to blackjack.

One of the things I don't understand is why land based casinos offer such penetrations as 70%, 75%, 80%, 85%.
The higher the penetration the higher the chances for the player to take advantage over the casino so, if you were a casino, why offer penetration?.
Obviously it is not done to atract counter since casino do not want counter to take away their money. On the other hand, regular people with no idea about blackjack will continue playing wether they offer a good penetration or not. So my question stands.
¿why offer penetration? ¿why not shuffle after a couple of hands, get rid of counters and always have the advantage?...

Thanks.

Penetration is a sword that cuts both ways - while increased penetration makes the game more exploitable to counting, it also increases the house profits because more hands are dealt per hour. Casinos that offer only poor penetration are reducing their profit, regardless of what they might lose to counters. zg

 

[eds27]

Penetration is a sword that cuts both ways - while increased penetration makes the game more exploitable to counting, it also increases the house profits because more hands are dealt per hour. Casinos that offer only poor penetration are reducing their profit, regardless of what they might lose to counters. zg

I don't know that much about blackjack but I do not agree with that.
Casinos could shuffle after every hand (using one of those automatic shufllers I've seen in so many casinos).
That way they would have no penetration, would give no advantage to players and still have a lot of profit.
Yeah, that could cut down the number of hands per hour from 50 to 49 or 48, but I would still be worth it...

 

[E-town-guy]

First off I think it was originally implied that the dealer was shuffling the cards which thus eats up valuable time. Secondly if you're playing with a shuffle machine it can probably shuffle the cards while the dealer is dealing meaning there is no delay due to shuffling, increasing the casino's profits. With the speed of a shuffle machine you should be able to get over 100hands/hr unless the players are really slow.

The Grifter's point was correct how pen. can hurt and work for a casino. Even if a casino offered good pen. attracting counters any losses suffered by the casino due to them would be made up and then some by the other gamblers.

 

[Tony Roq]

Number of Card Counters

This all raises a question in my mind: how many skilled card counters are there in USA and Canada? Hazard a guess, anyone? Not so many as to pose a threat to casino profits, I would think.

 

[bosco4300]

I saw a TV show where a casino worker said something like 15-20 in Vegas and maybe 15 more around the US. Who knows if that is right, but I am sure there are alot more people who try to count than can actually count.

 

[zengrifter]

My estimate - 80+ hardcore pros and another 200 semi-pros in North America. Beyond that another 300 solid novices. zg

 

[Canceler]

My estimate - 80+ hardcore pros and another 300-400 semi-pros in North America. Beyond that another 500-700 solid novices. zg

So, maybe 1200 effective card counters in North America. I wonder what that comes out to in relation to the total number of BJ players. 1 in 500 might be a counter? 1 in 1000? Less?

This might explain why I've only identified one other counter in the time I've been playing. Of course, I live in Flyoverland! Probably more of them around LV & AC.

Okay, 600 card counters in NA. Hard to keep up with things changing all the time!