Another Renzey article

T

TheReach

Active Member
#2
#2
Brilliant!! However I'm shocked to learn that there is a refined basic strategy!!!! Here is a quote from the article

Basic strategy that has been fine-tuned to take your card composition into account says to stand with 16 against a 10 if your 16 contains any 4s or 5s. But most players never get to that level in their game.

I've never heard of this refined startegy. Where can I find out more???

Cheers
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
#3
#3
TheReach said:
Basic strategy that has been fine-tuned to take your card composition into account says to stand with 16 against a 10 if your 16 contains any 4s or 5s. But most players never get to that level in their game. I've never heard of this refined startegy. Where can I find out more???
Click to expand...
You don't need to find out more, its not worth any appreciable gain. Either you count or you just play BS. However, if you count you can learn a revised BS for counters. zg
 
Q

Quinc

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
where we soposed to learn somthing from that article other then that the other players at the table were right most of the time when he hit and shouldn't have? yes it was against basic strategy but they were still right.. :(
 
J

johntks

Member
#6
#6
There we go again

This just prove my point on Ken's previous citation of Fred Renzey previous article. I had said that "if you play like that you won't last very long". Playing Basic Stategy is problematic enough with your fellow players and getting harassed or heat from them is very real indeed. For Renzey to double down then his soft 19 against the dealer's 5 is just out of this world and his fellow players would think he is absolutely a crazy player and he is lucky his fellow players did not rough him up.
I can safely say that you US players are more knowledgeable with BS than us here in Asia. In the casino where I play, out of about 100 regular players I can count 1 other person who plays BS like me. Another 2 knows BS and plays 50+% BS. Another 5 has heard something about BS but that is about all. The other 90+% have never heard of BS and is very hostile to any BS play. Hence because of the heat I am not able to play BS.
Now here we have Renzey moaning about being critized for his refined BS play. Well, welcome to the club, Fred. This is the reality of everyday life.
BJ IS A VERY ANTI-SOCIAL GAME. The way you play your cards affect your fellow player's card. And human nature being what it is ,if they lose they will blame it on your play. Add to that some very hostile and bad losers and you will experience some very bad and nasty situations. The simple truth is you will upset more people than please them. And you will make more enemiestha friends. But don't blame it all on others. How about yourself.
How many of you, including our guru Ken, would be upset if someone split his 10's at your table. I know you said other people's play good and bad would even out the final outcome of your bank roll. So answer honestly if you yourself would be upset if someone split his 10's at your table. If you are then.......anti-social.
Myself, I don't even see what cards the other players have, let alone track how they play. I only notice other people's play if everybody is looking at someone's card because someone has split his 10 cards. Yet I get jolted in some sessions on my BS play by some very unsavoury remarks. Perhaps Ken has some good insights in this matter.
 
Mikeaber

Mikeaber

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
I'm not quite sure what the point was in Renzey's article unless it was to point out the "rule of 45" that I thought most BS players had at least heard of. But, it was a good read and underscored the composition of the players at the tables these days.

I've found basically (no pun intended) two types: Those "Monday Morning Quarterbacks" Fred mentions who obviously have knowledge devinely obtained, and those who do not have a clue. There is a rare third type made up of those who do know and utilize Basic Strategy.

I used to try and explain why I make certain plays to those who criticize my play but eventually learned that it does no good. It's like trying to win a political or religious argument using logic....it don't work!

But I think what irks me more than the criticism I receive is watching some Einstein make voodoo plays and win with them. It encourages them to continue making those plays even though in reality, they lose more often than they win. They seem to not remember the times they lose and the adrenalin rush they must get from being a "hero" must overshadow whatever iota of intelligence they might have been able to gain from the experience had they been objective about it.

An example not mentioned by Renzey: I often play with a guy at the tables who is a rather mild-manered old gent. But he is of the opinion that he can control the Dealer's fate! One of his pet peeves is when the dealer is showing a bust card and everyone has a hand that should NOT be hit. He is convinced that if no one takes a card, the dealer will "draw out" and beat the table. If this happens, he will quitely explain to me (for the millionth time!) that the guy with the thirteen should have taken one for the table! And, if he is the one, he does actually hit when he shouldn't so he at least practices what he preaches!
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
#8
#8
**My responses are embedded -

johntks said:
writes -
Click to expand...
This just prove my point on Ken's previous citation of Fred Renzey previous article. I had said that "if you play like that you won't last very long". Playing Basic Stategy is problematic enough with your fellow players and getting harassed or heat from them is very real indeed.

**Bullsh*t

For Renzey to double down then his soft 19 against the dealer's 5 is just out of this world and his fellow players would think he is absolutely a crazy player and he is lucky his fellow players did not rough him up.

**Bullsh*t

I can safely say that you US players are more knowledgeable with BS than us here in Asia. In the casino where I play, out of about 100 regular players I can count 1 other person who plays BS like me. Another 2 knows BS and plays 50+% BS. Another 5 has heard something about BS but that is about all. The other 90+% have never heard of BS and is very hostile to any BS play. Hence because of the heat I am not able to play BS.

**Proves what Bullsh*t the adadge that Asian gamblers are so savvy.

Now here we have Renzey moaning about being critized for his refined BS play.

**You misunderstood - the crticism levied at Renzey was from BS and semi-BS players.

Well, welcome to the club, Fred. This is the reality of everyday life.
BJ IS A VERY ANTI-SOCIAL GAME. The way you play your cards affect your fellow player's card.

**Bullsh*t - the way you play your cards DOES NOT affect your fellow player's card.

And human nature being what it is, if they lose they will blame it on your play. Add to that some very hostile and bad losers and you will experience some very bad and nasty situations.

**Can't imagine.

The simple truth is you will upset more people than please them. And you will make more enemiestha friends.

**Who the f**k cares?

But don't blame it all on others. How about yourself.
How many of you, including our guru Ken, would be upset if someone split his 10's at your table.

**No knowledable neophyte/BS player would care!!

I know you said other people's play good and bad would even out the final outcome of your bank roll. So answer honestly if you yourself would be upset if someone split his 10's at your table. If you are then.......anti-social.

**Not in the slightest.

Myself, I don't even see what cards the other players have, let alone track how they play. I only notice other people's play if everybody is looking at someone's card because someone has split his 10 cards. Yet I get jolted in some sessions on my BS play by some very unsavoury remarks. Perhaps Ken has some good insights in this matter.

**My insightful suspicion is that YOU ARE NOT a solid BS player and rationalize reasons not to play solid BS, and perhaps you don't even fully know it. Yes? zg
 
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KenSmith

KenSmith

Administrator
Staff member
#9
#9
johntks said:
For Renzey to double down then his soft 19 against the dealer's 5 is just out of this world and his fellow players would think he is absolutely a crazy player and he is lucky his fellow players did not rough him up.
Click to expand...
While I've endured my share of unhappy looks and clueless comments about my play, I've never felt physically threatened. And if I did, I'd make absolutely sure that the pit knew about the threats.

johntks said:
The other 90+% have never heard of BS and is very hostile to any BS play. Hence because of the heat I am not able to play BS.
Click to expand...
If you really find yourself unable to play correctly for fear of being criticized, you'll need to find another pastime. And, there's nothing wrong with that.

johntks said:
Well, welcome to the club, Fred. This is the reality of everyday life.
Click to expand...
Right you are. Criticism for accurate play is commonplace.

johntks said:
How many of you, including our guru Ken, would be upset if someone split his 10's at your table.
Click to expand...
Not in the least. What other players do with their money is their business. I know it doesn't affect me in any way. Why should I care?

johntks said:
Perhaps Ken has some good insights in this matter.
Click to expand...
Apparently not. :)
 
L

LeonShuffle

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
What's with all this talk about his refined BS? I mean, I know what it is but there's only one example of it in that article (standing on the 16). The other 3 instances he mentions are all normal BS.
 
E

E-town-guy

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
I very rarely give advice and of course never take anyone else's advice, though I don't think I've ever been rude about it. I've also never felt threatened by another player though if something did occur I would feel confident in the casino/securities ability to deal with the situation.

I've both heard and read in some blackjack books, including stanford wong's that Asian gamblers aren't usually the brightest when it comes to playing correctly and thus you can sometimes find some good rules there which are easy to exploit for the counter.
 
J

johntks

Member
#12
#12
Thanks for the reply Ken

Yes, I am trying out Mini-Baccarat now. The house advantage is only 1.06% for Banker and the speed of play here is only 60 rounds per hour.The other information I gleam from the Internet is to bet only after the Banker has won. This would efectively cut the speed of play to half and the house advantage is about .50% This is about the same as playing perfect BS.
But the overiding consideration is the playing enviroment is a world apart from playing BJ.
 
C

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#13
#13
Don't be irked!

Mikeaber said:
But I think what irks me more than the criticism I receive is watching some Einstein make voodoo plays and win with them. It encourages them to continue making those plays even though in reality, they lose more often than they win.
Click to expand...
Don't ever forget, we need these people! Never mind card counting, if everyone started playing perfect BS tomorrow, casino profits from BJ would drop by at least 75%, and by next month all the tables would be replaced by slot machines. Nobody wants to see that.
 
zengrifter

zengrifter

Banned
#14
#14
johntks said:
Yes, I am trying out Mini-Baccarat now. The house advantage is only 1.06% for Banker and the speed of play here is only 60 rounds per hour.The other information I gleam from the Internet is to bet only after the Banker has won. This would efectively cut the speed of play to half and the house advantage is about .50% This is about the same as playing perfect BS.
Click to expand...
NO, ITS NOT!!

Hey I know - play BS BJ and only play 20 hands per hour.

Seriously, JohnTKS, stop being a silly irrational Asian gambler and commit to seriously learning how to play BJ. zg
 
J

johntks

Member
#15
#15
And then there was peace. Yes, America is the land of the free. We Aliens [Is that what you call us] do admire you. But you have many faults too. You are too inward looking, provincial even. But who could blame you when you see yourself as being the center of the world. Free speech, free everything do come at a price. The wonders of the Internet has brought us all together and this message board is an excellent venue for useful discussion on our common interest subject. However when things get too hot it is time to step back abit.
I will not dignify that man by respnding to his diatribe against me. Anything more that I say would be met by another swift and revengeful attack.
Ken, you have an excllent website here. Your generousity in providing free BJ training has enable me to head right into the casino BJ tables and play like a Pro. Your inciteful answers do tell me that you are a very inteligent man. Someone who knows how to look after yourself and your "rice bowl' as we say in this part of the world. Thanks again.
 
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S

samsagaz

Member
#17
#17
zengrifter said:
NO, ITS NOT!!

Hey I know - play BS BJ and only play 20 hands per hour.

Seriously, JohnTKS, stop being a silly irrational Asian gambler and commit to seriously learning how to play BJ. zg
Click to expand...
hey Zen, im from Argentina im damn new on this stuff (BJ; CASINOS; CARD COUNTING; BS) i just played BJ 2 times in an real casino. (all these times i lost all my money, but i get fun for like 3 hours) :D....

what good urls/tutorial you can give me to "seriously learning how to play BJ" ?

im really overwhelmed about all the important people (in the BJ world) that are in this board (like you).....

well, sorry for my english.

Hope you guys understand me :cool:
 
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