Does this Simple Progression Destroy the House Edge?

#1
Riddle me this, Batman...

Here’s a simple 6 step pos/neg progression I believe I found somewhere on this site.

It takes 2 wins (repeat or parlay) to reset the progression cycle to step 1. It also takes a single loss (parlay) or single NET loss (repeat) to advance to the next step.

. . . . Bet . . . . Loss . . . Win
1) 5 repeat . . . .-5 . . . +10
2) 5 parlay . . . -10 . . . +10
3) 10 repeat . . -20 . . . +10

4) 10 parlay . . -30 . . . +10
5) 20 repeat . . -50 . . . +10
6) 20 parlay . . -70 . . . +10

Now, the Wizard Of Odds says, ignoring pushes, you have a 52.5% chance of losing any hand. You’ve also got a 47.5% chance of winning. The odds of winning 2 hands in a row are about 1 in 4.5 tries. Or twice in 9 tries.

Looking at the chart of the progression, you can say there is a 2/3 chance of any progression cycle ending with a win in the first 3 steps. That’s because 3 tries (steps) times 1 in 4.5 tries, = 3/4.5 = 2/3.

Another way to say this is that on average, of every 3 cycles played, 2 will end in steps 1-3 (with a win) and the 3rd will continue on to steps 4-6. So for 9 cycles played, you’ll have 6 wins in steps 1-3 and 3 cycles continue on to steps 4-6.

Same thing goes for the 3 of 9 cycles that reach steps 4-6. You’ll have 2 wins in steps 4-6, and one time you’ll lose step 6 and the progression cycle ends with a loss.

Totaled up, for each 9 cycles you play, you’ll have 8 wins (+$80) and 1 loss (-$70) for a net gain of $10.

What happened to the “house edge”?

The odds of losing 6 hands in a row are about 1 in 48 tries. The odds of winning 2 hands in a row are 1 in about 4.5 tries. 48/4.5 = just over 10. So the odds of losing 6 hands in a row before winning 2 in a row are about 1 in 10. Since each step pays $10 for a win, on average you should win $90 and lose $70 for every 10 cycles you play. That’s a net gain of $20.

Again, what happened to the “house edge”?


-darkstar-
 

gamblingghost

Well-Known Member
#2
This truely is a riddle! On number one you bet 5 and win 10!! how nice!!!
On number two you "parlay" 5,,,huh? I thought a parlay was to add winnings
to the original bet. I simply don't understand any of this.:confused: I await enlightenment. hmmm, but I gotta run to the casino first.
 

iCountNTrack

Well-Known Member
#3
darkstar said:
Riddle me this, Batman...

Here’s a simple 6 step pos/neg progression I believe I found somewhere on this site.

It takes 2 wins (repeat or parlay) to reset the progression cycle to step 1. It also takes a single loss (parlay) or single NET loss (repeat) to advance to the next step.

. . . . Bet . . . . Loss . . . Win
1) 5 repeat . . . .-5 . . . +10
2) 5 parlay . . . -10 . . . +10
3) 10 repeat . . -20 . . . +10

4) 10 parlay . . -30 . . . +10
5) 20 repeat . . -50 . . . +10
6) 20 parlay . . -70 . . . +10

Now, the Wizard Of Odds says, ignoring pushes, you have a 52.5% chance of losing any hand. You’ve also got a 47.5% chance of winning. The odds of winning 2 hands in a row are about 1 in 4.5 tries. Or twice in 9 tries.

Looking at the chart of the progression, you can say there is a 2/3 chance of any progression cycle ending with a win in the first 3 steps. That’s because 3 tries (steps) times 1 in 4.5 tries, = 3/4.5 = 2/3.

Another way to say this is that on average, of every 3 cycles played, 2 will end in steps 1-3 (with a win) and the 3rd will continue on to steps 4-6. So for 9 cycles played, you’ll have 6 wins in steps 1-3 and 3 cycles continue on to steps 4-6.

Same thing goes for the 3 of 9 cycles that reach steps 4-6. You’ll have 2 wins in steps 4-6, and one time you’ll lose step 6 and the progression cycle ends with a loss.

Totaled up, for each 9 cycles you play, you’ll have 8 wins (+$80) and 1 loss (-$70) for a net gain of $10.

What happened to the “house edge”?

The odds of losing 6 hands in a row are about 1 in 48 tries. The odds of winning 2 hands in a row are 1 in about 4.5 tries. 48/4.5 = just over 10. So the odds of losing 6 hands in a row before winning 2 in a row are about 1 in 10. Since each step pays $10 for a win, on average you should win $90 and lose $70 for every 10 cycles you play. That’s a net gain of $20.

Again, what happened to the “house edge”?


-darkstar-
I am sorry to burst your bubbl but your system is garbage. Read the stickies in this section.
 
#4
Step 1 is a repeat bet. To end the cycle requires 2 wins. So win $5 with the first bet. Repeat the bet with the $5 you won and win a total of $10. Progression starts a new cycle on step 1 again.

Step 2 is a parlay bet. To end the cycle also requires 2 wins. So win $5 with the first bet. Then parlay your original $5 and the $5 you won ($10 total) to win $20. Subtract the $5 out of pocket you bet along with the $5 you lost on step 1, and you have a profit of $10. Progression starts a new cycle on step 1 again.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#9
darkstar said:
This is NOT a complex system. It's incredibly simple. Just show me what happened to the house edge?
Nothing happened to the house edge whatsoever. It's still there, just like it always was.
 
#11
johndoe said:
Nothing happened to the house edge whatsoever. It's still there, just like it always was.
This is what I don't get. Then where is this simple chart wrong? It clearly shows a profit every 9 or 10 cycles?

Are you saying the chart is wrong?
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#12
gamblingghost said:
Everyone has read the stickies.
Then why does everyone ask the same questions that are answered, in detail, in the stickies? Why do we get exactly the same question day after day? If everyone read the stickies this forum would be empty.

-Sonny-
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#13
darkstar said:
Just show me what happened to the house edge?
It's your system, why don't you show us? Take the payouts for each cycle of your progression and multiply them by the probabilities of reaching that state. As you pointed out, you are more likely to lose the next hand. If you actually look at the results of your system I think you will find that the cycles where you lose will happen more frequently than the cycles where you win. If you do the math right then your result should be equal to the house edge multiplied by the average bet. The house edge didn't go anywhere, you just didn't look for it yet.

Read Renzey's response here:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=20239

And read through the sticky threads before you spend too much more time developing a progression system. Anything that is based on the Gambler's Fallacy is going to be a waste of time.

-Sonny-
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
#14
Sonny said:
Then why does everyone ask the same questions that are answered, in detail, in the stickies? Why do we get exactly the same question day after day? If everyone read the stickies this forum would be empty.

-Sonny-
I always assumed the Voodoo section was for purposes of our entertainment. :laugh:
 
#15
Sonny said:
Then why does everyone ask the same questions that are answered, in detail, in the stickies? Why do we get exactly the same question day after day? If everyone read the stickies this forum would be empty.

-Sonny-
Read the stickies before I made my post. I don't recall anyone ever asking an explanation of how a progression can clearly show a profit as this one does. Or show how the chart is wrong.
 
#16
Sonny said:
It's your system, why don't you show us? Take the payouts for each cycle of your progression and multiply them by the probabilities of reaching that state. As you pointed out, you are more likely to lose the next hand. If you actually look at the results of your system I think you will find that the cycles where you lose will happen more frequently than the cycles where you win. If you do the math right then your result should be equal to the house edge multiplied by the average bet. The house edge didn't go anywhere, you just didn't look for it yet.

Read Renzey's response here:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=20239

And read through the sticky threads before you spend too much more time developing a progression system. Anything that is based on the Gambler's Fallacy is going to be a waste of time.

-Sonny-
It's not my system. I found it here. I used info provided by the Wizard Of Odds in my analysis. That's been good enough for me and everyone else so far...until now I guess.

If you feel it's wrong, then PLEASE show me where.
 

gamblingghost

Well-Known Member
#17
What's wrong with being entertained by watching someone come up with an intricate set of numbers and thinking this is IT! This overcomes the EV.
Also reading the very entertaining analogies that come up. The rudeness, not so much.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#19
darkstar said:
Read the stickies before I made my post. I don't recall anyone ever asking an explanation of how a progression can clearly show a profit as this one does. Or show how the chart is wrong.
If you read through the stickies then you will see that this system is no different than any other progression system. You don't need to run any numbers to see where it fails. It is based on the Gambler's Fallacy. No matter what kind of system you build on top of that fallacy, it will always fail. The sticky thread titled "The Gambler's Fallacy" explains is all in painstaking detail.

darkstar said:
If you feel it's wrong, then PLEASE show me where.
I did. I told you where to find the answers, explained to you how to analyze the system and told you what the results will be. What more do you want? If you're truly interested in learning how to play then you will find the answers in the places I have shown you. You will learn a lot more by finding the answers than by having them given to you.

-Sonny-
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#20
kewljason said:
I always assumed the Voodoo section was for purposes of our entertainment. :laugh:
It always ends up that way, but that's not the intention. This isn't meant to be a place where we laugh at all the silly gamblers. We can go to just about every other gambling website to do that. The purpose of this forum is to discuss voodoo systems and hopefully educate people about gambling theory and spotting scams. Ultimately, the only people who want to discuss progression systems are newbies who don't know any better, degenerate gamblers who don't want to hear any different and trolls who just want to keep us on the line. I try to steer the latter two groups to the aforementioned gambling websites. The newbies typically learn a few lessons and move on to the other forums. For the most part, this forum just ends up being a trash can of degenerate flames, useless strategies and broken daydreams. :(

-Sonny-
 
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