Help me understand your thoughts......

RJT

Well-Known Member
#1
Before i start this, i feel the need to offer Sonny an apology. I know that i said i would back off this, but with Kasi now posting defending AM's drivel, i'm not as confident as i was when we spoke that the people here do differentiate between good worthwhile advice and the the baseless rubbish that AM spews every time he feels threatened in his lofty position of message board guru.
Recently AM has once again made flat out claims that a good friend of mind, Bojack1 is a con man. He has come out with wilder and wilder accusations as each of his claims has been invalidated with a combination of common sense and practical experience. For the record, i won't even reference Bojack's extensive practical experience here rather the Uston team and the MIT team, both highly successful to a level that i doubt anyone here can argue with and both well documented in literature, interview and members in the HOF to show their achievements. Even if you don't want to believe that Bojack is what he says he is, much of the advice both he and i have given has been heavily based on techniques used by both these teams, just modified to suit today's playing environment.
Now to the point of this post - I want to know how many people here believe that either Bojack or myself have any affiliation with Blackjack Institute on any form of financial or personal level? Do you feel like we are trying to sell you something? Think about that then answer these three questions please.

a) Has any advice either of us has ever given you felt like what you would consider a sales pitch to purchase anything specific that you think we had motives other than your best interests to recommend you? In other words do you think that we were recommending something to you that we knew wasn't the best tool for the job to benefit either ourselves or our connections?

b) Have either of us ever asked at anytime or in any way for you to direct any money toward ourselves or BI?

c) Have either or us ever given you advice that you feel was wrong or in any way damaged your game?

Now i know that both of us have advised many of you on many different subjects over private message and we've often offered general advice to posters on the board, so i'm hoping for a very large quantity of responses here. Not to put it bluntly, but this will decided whether i empty my inbox here and move on permanently.
What really irks me is not the accusations of an ignorant poster with sever ego issues and a desperate need to attack the credibility of anyone who would dare challenge his limited knowledge and understanding, but the fact that i get the impression that many people here actually buy his s***. If you can't see him for what he is, i think maybe i'm wasting my time. By all means listen to what he has to say, but you've got to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff if you're going to take anything away from it.
Anyway, i'll check back in a few days time to see what you all have to say on this issue.

RJT.
 

ColorMeUp

Well-Known Member
#2
Simple. No, no, and no.

Let me preface this by saying that I don't have any team playing experience; but I believe no doubt that you guys (Bojack and RJT) are the real deal. It's blatantly obvious that the BP needs to pass a more rigorous check out than a spotter, and all other points you guys made on the other thread make perfect sense, unlike some of the other drivel.

In closing, your input here is valued. Don't get scared away by someone who dodges the questions you pose to them about their experience with team play with accusations and insinuations.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#3
no, no & no.......

far as i'm concerned your all three good guys. got some differant opinions, ideas, thoughts thats all.
hang around dude....... nough said.
 
#4
Great advice, no sales pitch

I have benefited a lot from posts by Bojack, yourself, and AM.

A few years ago, I was playing a mediocre counting game that had me constantly swinging into the red,with much emotional turmoil (we're talking low 5 figure amounts). Reading advice posted by you gentlemen on this and other BJ forums (HitOrStand, BJInstitute, AdvantagePlayer, BJForumOnline, BJ21) has helped me grow my skills and my bankroll immensely.

Things like:

1. Keep practicing to improve your speed and accuracy. Don't become complacent and sloppy. You're probably not as good as you think you are.

2. The importance of Kelly betting, and some simple approximations (the magical 266) to size bets to bring the risk within an acceptable level. My ROR in the early days was huge, and it showed on the bottom line.

3. Helping to deal with the brutal negative variance that inevitably hits. Hearing the stories from others "re-assures" one that it is unavoidable.

4. Employing some simple shuffle tracking when the opportunity arises. Bojack's "back of the napkin" explanation of simple zone tracking, calculating the TC in the tracked zone, and how best to cut it into or out of play was a ground breaking revelation to me.


I really appreciate the knowledge you have all shared freely. There will always be differences in opinion and some conflict (anonymity brings out nastiness), but fundamentally the intention to help others be successful is there.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
#5
I don’t see why there has to be an ultimatum. I respect all of your opinions. You and Bojack are obviously very strong players, but that doesn’t mean AM is a total fraud just because he has other opinions and ideas. I like the fact that AM sometimes offers ideas that do not conform to the conventional style of team play. Some of his ideas are “wheat” and others “chaff” but it always gets people thinking. Whether or not his ideas will work for their particular situation is for them to decide. In some cases it may even open their eyes to a new idea that they can adapt to fit their needs. Anyone who disagrees with the feasibility of his ideas is welcome to offer their opinions, but there’s no reason for things to turn personal. As Ken says in the Posting Guidelines for this site “While intelligent people can and will disagree, make an extra effort to be civil.”

Sure, having the spotters making big bets while the BP is at another table would be suicide for a high-level pro team, but it is the kind of thing that a smaller team might be able to get away with once in a while (under the right circumstances of course). A small team with a small max bet is really depending on those bets to earn their wages. To ignore that possibility and not even look for those opportunities could cost them.

As far as his comments that insinuated you and Bojack were hawking BJI products, that does seem a bit out of character to me. My only comment on that topic is to forget about it. As I’ve said before, people are encouraged to make their own judgments on issues like these. I think everyone on this site is more than capable of coming to logical and rational decision on their own. That’s what being a smart player is all about.

I’m not taking anyone’s side here. I’m just pointing out that knowledge can be found in almost any source of information. Heck, I learned a lot from Jerry Patterson books and John Patrick’s website. :)

-Sonny-
 
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GeorgeD

Well-Known Member
#6
No, absolutely No, and No.

But then I take all advice with a grain of salt ... big or small grains depending on the source. Based on history, you guys only require the smallest grain.

I don't know why anyone on boards has to get in pissing contests ...... if that's what this might be called. Just gnore the a$$holes (and I'm not calling anyone an A$$hole), and offer civil counter discussions when someone offers info that might get others in trouble.
 

Canceler

Well-Known Member
#7
Disclaimer: I didn't read the entire New Friends thread. I tend to skip over long posts that look like a rant. Then I don't read the reply to the rant... You understand.

So, my answers are based on everything else I've read: No, no, and no.

I keep thinking of QFIT, who apparently allowed himself to be driven off this board by just one poster. He could have ignored this poster, but chose to leave, instead. Now we're deprived of QFIT's input here.

It would be a shame to have something like that happen again.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
#8
I don't think any of you are frauds. Both Bojack and AM have been kind enough to offer me advice thru PMs.I didn't bother reading the whole New friends thread either,as it got way out of hand.
As far as I can tell ,none of the three of you has offered advice that I felt was done to misdirect someone.
Obviously there is more than one way to skin a cat,yet in the end the cat gets skinned.
Please don't turn this disagreement into a popularity contest where the loser feels compelled to leave the board. Otherwise we all lose.
 

Knox

Well-Known Member
#9
I think this is a great board, best one I know of. Innovative thinking is key to what we do. I think the folks involved in this squabble all have something to offer to all of us.

Option 1 if you don't like a thread is to stay off it. Quite easy to do.

Option 2 is to diasgree, but do so politely. Be careful not to misread the tone of others, that is easy to do on this medium.

Option 3, if you find a good place to play, don't post it on a public Internet message board! (had to throw that one in) :joker:
 

Kaiser

Well-Known Member
#10
Definitely don't post the great games, that ruins it for everyone. Just PM them to me so that I may verify them. I'll come back here and vouch for you afterwards.
 

rogue1

Well-Known Member
#12
Both you and Bojack have always been very good about sharing your knowledge with all of us. Anyone who thinks that either of you have anything to sell is crazy!
Look at what you're dealing with:AM doesn't seem to appreciate that it's better to be kind to an animal than cruel.
 

nightspirit

Well-Known Member
#13
Not guilty on all counts!

RJT,
please, do you think we can't differ between good and bad advices, not to mention AP wannabees and real pros? I didn't have the playing experience and knowledge like you and Bojack not even that of AM. But for all that, I'm capable to build my on opinion about some controversy subjects. So don't rack your brain over AM. He is not fit to hold a candle to you and you know that. period! Like i mentioned in the "New friends" thread, we all make our decision whose advice we follow, whom to trust and whom not, long ago. I`m thankful for every advice you gave to us and glad that such guys like you, Bojack, Sonny, ihate17 (to name a few) are around here and share your knowledge with us.

When I think about all the hours I spent, reading old post of you guys on the various forums, I must say that you all inspired me more than any book I read about BJ! The recommondations you gave always hit the mark and have been exactly what I was looking for!
 

Knox

Well-Known Member
#14
Let's keep in mind that a fair amount of what is shared on here are subjective "opinions". AM is one of the first guys I see willing to run a quick sim to help other people out. I'm not going to pick sides or tell anyone they are no good. If they are a winning player, they are good. I think there are quite a few talented folks on here, nobody has a monopoly on that.
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#15
shadroch said:
Please don't turn this disagreement into a popularity contest where the loser feels compelled to leave the board. Otherwise we all lose.
I agree with this sentiment completely. I don't read these forums as thoroughly as some, but I have garnered a lot of useful information from all 3 of you. In all honesty I'm a fan of AM's style, though I take his advice and everyone on here with a grain of salt, combined with passing it through my own 'logic' filter. does it make sense? would it work? is it BS?

I've learned a lot from RJT and Bojack too.

but in the end it's my money i'm playing with at the table, so all advice on here, all persona's, all egos --- i try to filter through all of it to get useful info. and it's taken some time to develop those filters for different people.

didn't have a ton of luck with Crappy.... ;) but i sure tried.

i think ego is a big problem that faces a lot of us - i'm not calling you an ego maniac, but people do get upset when a persona insults their credibility, etc... it's tough to let go, but sometimes that's the best way to move forward.
 

jimpenn

Well-Known Member
#16
Running out of sites

Hit & Stand standing still. This site obtains a lot of hits from the people who value the reasoning from all three of these posters. Many times a couple times a day. I hope this somehow goes away.
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
#17
Ok, i said a few days but i've had a couple of beers and my nose got the better of me.
I'd like to clear something of a misconception up before this goes any further. I'm not looking for a 'this town ain't big enough' scenario here. In fact far from it. Sonny i agree, having someone who challenges current conceptual thinking is certainly a benificial aspect to encourage on a message board.
What i am looking to know - and very directly - is if the posters here actually believe that Bojack or myself are in anyway what-so-ever here to promote a product. Personally i feel quite insulted at the insinuations that have been made here that we are trying to manipulate people who don't know enough to know better into spending more than they have to. Neither myself nor Bojack is a sales person for anyone.
If the posters here actually believe the accusations that have been made, then yes i will move along. I have a certain amount of loyalty and when someone who has been as genuine as Bojack has people believing these sort of slurs that upsets me. It upsets me because i know that he has spent many hours helping myself and many of you with no motive other than to share some of what he has learned.
The reason i even feel the need to ask is that when these accusations have been made - and they have been made several times now over the course of this year - as far as i can recall not one person barring myself has stepped forward to say that they don't think that these accusation were true. So that has left me wondering if people actually believe the rubbish that has beens leveled?
As to the aspects of play, yes read both and learn to spot what's real and what's not. I've - even in my most ranty - stated that there are areas of the game that AM has a wealth of knowledge. And i certainly don't deny him the right to play devils advocate. But if someone starts making baseless accusations against a person who has helped you, it seems only right to me that you say something, especially when they are the sort of accusations that can cause people to form very bias and negative views.
I've no problem arguing vehomently when i feel i'm right about an issue and not holding a grudge afterwards, but when my honesty - or the honesty of those i consider friends - is called into question, that when i become somewhat more aggressive about the issue.
Anyway, i would like to thank those of you so far that have posted for the kind words and commentary on the issue, but i would still encourage more to post. If anyone has any issue with my presense here or feels that i have in any way mislead them i would rather that it was dealt right now and i know that Bojack feels the same.

RJT.
 

bj bob

Well-Known Member
#18
"Why can't we all just get along?"

-Rodney King (famous Americn citizen)

Now now, gentlemen we need to all take a deep breath here and get back to the underlying topics posed in the original thread matter. Name calling and pedigree questioning always ends up fruitless.
What I think we have arrived at here is a philoshophical disagreement, i.e.The Monk's perception of a "gorilla"(note the tribal loyalty) vs. RJT's conceptualization of the BP. Notice that I used the two different terms because you folks are placing different values on the big bet player. The first is just a "robot" in effect, while the second is a highly trained BJ team player.
In my opinion the differing uses of such a role in a team is no different that two quality major league managers with two different styles. Take Leland and Torre for example. One has a much smaller payroll to work with while the other has unlimited resources. One has to work with a much younger team while the other has primarily all super star veterans. So who's the better manager? They're both top notch. They both have winning credentials and , in the end they both produce winners.
I have no doubt that RJT's team is highly successful and I also know for a fact that the Monkey has cleaned up his share of trays along the way. As far as his credentials are concerned-anyone intellegent enough to redo a traditional counting system ala RPC and simplify it without any negative effect speaks volumes in and of itself.
On a deeper and much more important level the "ad hominem" attacks shouldn't be allowed to continue, since it renders the possibilty of losing one or more of your quality minds on this forum. We lost Norm a few months ago and his wisdom along with it. We don't need any more of it. Don't forget guys, that there are a lot of enrty level counters/ players who take your advice and opinions as gospel and may not even be to the level of comprehending what you all are even arguing about.
 

Mimosine

Well-Known Member
#19
RJT said:
What i am looking to know - and very directly - is if the posters here actually believe that Bojack or myself are in anyway what-so-ever here to promote a product.
RJT.
never got that impression from either of you....
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
#20
I haven't really throught about, or even cared if Bojack and RJT might be affiliated with BJI.

However, they never seemed like hucksters for particularly anything. And if they were, they probably would have been banned a long time ago.
 
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