New to counting, my story
- Thread starter Drake7
- Start date
Any new players reading this above quote must first understand that what is being said is coming from a very humble person, to say the least. The hard part that KJ talks about cannot be trivialized in any possible way, it is a real skill that few people can really control. Combining that part of the game with learning casino comportment, another way of saying how you present and conduct yourself in a casino looking natural under live conditions. Knowing casino tolerances, when to end a session is all a real skill that you won't find in books, and takes years of experience to really learn, and sometimes you still get it wrong. For myself, I have done well for a part-timer but I cannot imagine everything that is needed to do blackjack as a successful career. Hats off to those few amongst us who were determined to make it all worthwhile. Very humble indeed KJ.
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Drake7, do not take what Zen King said above lightly, as he is making a strong point. True count frequencies percentages at a true count of zero are very high based on the game and pen, a good estimate for this TCF of zero is one out of every three hands, with the house holding the upfront edge percentage.
Yes, Zenking is correct. He has some good blackjack knowledge and can be a benefit to others when he stays away from the goofy stuff. 
So a pure Wong would be something like entering at TC +3 and exiting at TC +1 (about break even).
The advantages: You won't be playing many rounds but every round will be played at an advantage. You could even flat bet or use a very small spread making it more difficult to peg you as a card counter.
The disadvantages: You won't get in many rounds and it can quickly become pretty obvious what you are doing, especially if you are standing around tables that are pretty empty, which you really need in order to be sure you can jump in at the right moment.
While I decided early on that "pure" wonging in, as described above wasn't for me for the reasons given, a wonging "out" technique of playing off the top but exiting fairly aggressively on a mild negative count has obviously not all, but some of the benefit. You are avoiding the worst (disadvantage) counts. You play more and it looks more natural. You are not standing around, standing out and making other players feel uncomfortable. You do need to spread, but you can tone down your spread from what would be required for a play all situation.
So a pure Wong would be something like entering at TC +3 and exiting at TC +1 (about break even).
The advantages: You won't be playing many rounds but every round will be played at an advantage. You could even flat bet or use a very small spread making it more difficult to peg you as a card counter.
The disadvantages: You won't get in many rounds and it can quickly become pretty obvious what you are doing, especially if you are standing around tables that are pretty empty, which you really need in order to be sure you can jump in at the right moment.
While I decided early on that "pure" wonging in, as described above wasn't for me for the reasons given, a wonging "out" technique of playing off the top but exiting fairly aggressively on a mild negative count has obviously not all, but some of the benefit. You are avoiding the worst (disadvantage) counts. You play more and it looks more natural. You are not standing around, standing out and making other players feel uncomfortable. You do need to spread, but you can tone down your spread from what would be required for a play all situation.
KewlJ said:
Yes, Zenking is correct. He has some good blackjack knowledge and can be a benefit to others when he stays away from the goofy stuff.
So a pure Wong would be something like entering at TC +3 and exiting at TC +1 (about break even).
The advantages: You won't be playing many rounds but every round will be played at an advantage. You could even flat bet or use a very small spread making it more difficult to peg you as a card counter.
The disadvantages: You won't get in many rounds and it can quickly become pretty obvious what you are doing, especially if you are standing around tables that are pretty empty, which you really need in order to be sure you can jump in at the right moment.
While I decided early on that "pure" wonging in, as described above wasn't for me for the reasons given, a wonging "out" technique of playing off the top but exiting fairly aggressively on a mild negative count has obviously not all, but some of the benefit. You are avoiding the worst (disadvantage) counts. You play more and it looks more natural. You are not standing around, standing out and making other players feel uncomfortable. You do need to spread, but you can tone down your spread from what would be required for a play all situation.
So a pure Wong would be something like entering at TC +3 and exiting at TC +1 (about break even).
The advantages: You won't be playing many rounds but every round will be played at an advantage. You could even flat bet or use a very small spread making it more difficult to peg you as a card counter.
The disadvantages: You won't get in many rounds and it can quickly become pretty obvious what you are doing, especially if you are standing around tables that are pretty empty, which you really need in order to be sure you can jump in at the right moment.
While I decided early on that "pure" wonging in, as described above wasn't for me for the reasons given, a wonging "out" technique of playing off the top but exiting fairly aggressively on a mild negative count has obviously not all, but some of the benefit. You are avoiding the worst (disadvantage) counts. You play more and it looks more natural. You are not standing around, standing out and making other players feel uncomfortable. You do need to spread, but you can tone down your spread from what would be required for a play all situation.
KewlJ said:
Yes, Zenking is correct. He has some good blackjack knowledge and can be a benefit to others when he stays away from the goofy stuff.
So a pure Wong would be something like entering at TC +3 and exiting at TC +1 (about break even).
The advantages: You won't be playing many rounds but every round will be played at an advantage. You could even flat bet or use a very small spread making it more difficult to peg you as a card counter.
The disadvantages: You won't get in many rounds and it can quickly become pretty obvious what you are doing, especially if you are standing around tables that are pretty empty, which you really need in order to be sure you can jump in at the right moment.
While I decided early on that "pure" wonging in, as described above wasn't for me for the reasons given, a wonging "out" technique of playing off the top but exiting fairly aggressively on a mild negative count has obviously not all, but some of the benefit. You are avoiding the worst (disadvantage) counts. You play more and it looks more natural. You are not standing around, standing out and making other players feel uncomfortable. You do need to spread, but you can tone down your spread from what would be required for a play all situation.
So a pure Wong would be something like entering at TC +3 and exiting at TC +1 (about break even).
The advantages: You won't be playing many rounds but every round will be played at an advantage. You could even flat bet or use a very small spread making it more difficult to peg you as a card counter.
The disadvantages: You won't get in many rounds and it can quickly become pretty obvious what you are doing, especially if you are standing around tables that are pretty empty, which you really need in order to be sure you can jump in at the right moment.
While I decided early on that "pure" wonging in, as described above wasn't for me for the reasons given, a wonging "out" technique of playing off the top but exiting fairly aggressively on a mild negative count has obviously not all, but some of the benefit. You are avoiding the worst (disadvantage) counts. You play more and it looks more natural. You are not standing around, standing out and making other players feel uncomfortable. You do need to spread, but you can tone down your spread from what would be required for a play all situation.
Never heard of such a thing, Nightshifter. Please tell us more.
Seriously, I appreciate you reaching out to me both publicly and privately, Nightshifter, but you will understand my skepticism at a member who in this first post, says some of the things you are stating. I mean your comments involving "chunking" (interesting term) amount to an admission of cheating, both personally and by the direction of the industry. There are some in this community that immediately dismiss and more any such comments to a voodoo section.
I am not being dismissive of what you are saying, but I would like to hear more, especially from a "newer" member.
Seriously, I appreciate you reaching out to me both publicly and privately, Nightshifter, but you will understand my skepticism at a member who in this first post, says some of the things you are stating. I mean your comments involving "chunking" (interesting term) amount to an admission of cheating, both personally and by the direction of the industry. There are some in this community that immediately dismiss and more any such comments to a voodoo section.
I am not being dismissive of what you are saying, but I would like to hear more, especially from a "newer" member.
KewlJ said:
I mean your comments involving "chunking" (interesting term) amount to an admission of cheating, both personally and by the direction of the industry. There are some in this community that immediately dismiss and more any such comments to a voodoo section.
I am not being dismissive of what you are saying, but I would like to hear more, especially from a "newer" member.
I am not being dismissive of what you are saying, but I would like to hear more, especially from a "newer" member.
Hello! I admit it's cheating in a legalized manner since we're still keeping all the cards ... you're just manipulating them under orders from the powers to be. Not all dealers can and do this, but you do have your coolers believe me... The main thing you would do in the beginning is push together the like cards (since each deck are in a new cards order) in the wash in order to get it all going right from the top... it's easier that way. This is done on occasion. Honestly, most of the players do not tip at all... and I'm not kidding when I actually would hear other dealers say that "I hope we knock the sh#t out of them tonight" because they were sick of this. You were more important to the house if you hold back cards under the cut card then rely on a few nickels and dimes from the players, although tipping to turn the tables does work Now I"m not saying this for all players, just a majority of them in casinos I've worked at... Same thing with the 8 Deck games. If the cards are already chunked up from the wash, then doing an offset shuffle (just watch hand shuffled games) will perpetuate them throughout the game. This will work for some time and give the house a tremendous edge for a while till it soaks out. You gotta look at the big picture... it doesn't matter how many players or how they play, it's the fact that cards are being held out of the game or kept in chunks to subvert basic strategy / counting. It all works because most players play one way and the house plays another... Again, it's the sole effect on the house take, and it doesn't always work the way intended, but overall percentage wise it's a detriment to the norm. Chunking Aces together is the easiest to do and prevents the occurrence of Blackjacks, esp. if you keep them away from the 10's and together with the low cards. If a bunch of aces come out at once, and the player gets a pair, they'll split, get more aces or low cards, and the dealer will pat and wipe him/her out. It's not that it happens this way all the time, it just happens more of the time which increases the drop in the long haul. Another method is to encourage stiff hands. The chunk of high cards are at the top or bottom before shuffling (based on where the slug was put at the end of the session) and the deck would be stripped. If done correctly, this would form a high low sequence of cards. You preserve this slug via an offset shuffle thus getting rid of the 10s chunk at the same time. Should I even be talking about this here since it's considered voodoo among the APs? I"m just here to give some insight and help other players become aware of these actions. I don't deal drugs... err I mean cards no more... just bringing some of my experiences on the table.... KewlJ did bring up some very important issues with the ASMs that really need to be addressed by the community IMHO. Overall, you guys are considerably brilliant players in which you get my utmost respect because making a living at BJ is not an easy quest... especially these days.
I admit it's cheating in a legalized manner since we're still keeping all the cards ... you're just manipulating them under orders from the powers to be. Not all dealers can and do this, but you do have your coolers believe me... The main thing you would do in the beginning is push together the like cards (since each deck are in a new cards order) in the wash in order to get it all going right from the top... it's easier that way. This is done on occasion. Honestly, most of the players do not tip at all... and I'm not kidding when I actually would hear other dealers say that "I hope we knock the sh#t out of them tonight" because they were sick of this. You were more important to the house if you hold back cards under the cut card then rely on a few nickels and dimes from the players, although tipping to turn the tables does work Now I"m not saying this for all players, just a majority of them in casinos I've worked at... Same thing with the 8 Deck games. If the cards are already chunked up from the wash, then doing an offset shuffle (just watch hand shuffled games) will perpetuate them throughout the game. This will work for some time and give the house a tremendous edge for a while till it soaks out. You gotta look at the big picture... it doesn't matter how many players or how they play, it's the fact that cards are being held out of the game or kept in chunks to subvert basic strategy / counting. It all works because most players play one way and the house plays another... Again, it's the sole effect on the house take, and it doesn't always work the way intended, but overall percentage wise it's a detriment to the norm. Chunking Aces together is the easiest to do and prevents the occurrence of Blackjacks, esp. if you keep them away from the 10's and together with the low cards. If a bunch of aces come out at once, and the player gets a pair, they'll split, get more aces or low cards, and the dealer will pat and wipe him/her out. It's not that it happens this way all the time, it just happens more of the time which increases the drop in the long haul. Another method is to encourage stiff hands. The chunk of high cards are at the top or bottom before shuffling (based on where the slug was put at the end of the session) and the deck would be stripped. If done correctly, this would form a high low sequence of cards. You preserve this slug via an offset shuffle thus getting rid of the 10s chunk at the same time. Should I even be talking about this here since it's considered voodoo among the APs? I"m just here to give some insight and help other players become aware of these actions. I don't deal drugs... err I mean cards no more... just bringing some of my experiences on the table.... KewlJ did bring up some very important issues with the ASMs that really need to be addressed by the community IMHO. Overall, you guys are considerably brilliant players in which you get my utmost respect because making a living at BJ is not an easy quest... especially these days.I did not say these discussions and the possibility of this behavior is considered voodoo among the AP's in the community. I said on one popular forum any discussion of this nature immediately gets moved to a voodoo section, with that particular administrator/owner taking a stance that no such activity occurs in today's environment. A stance that if one chooses to take, he must completely dismiss a century of history of this exact type of behavior involving the casino industry.
And yes there are some AP's that also conclude that this kind of behavior can't or doesn't occur in 2019. But there are also AP's, especially experienced AP's that play a lot, that have encountered situations where they know something is wrong. As a very experienced player on another site stated "you can just feel when something is not right" (referring to results and distribution of cards). THAT is really what experience is. You know something is wrong before you even realize exactly what it is.
Now, I am not saying this kind of thing or other discussed things occur regularly, because I don't believe they do. Nor am I prepared to accept everything Nightshifter says as gospel. As a player that plays 70-100 thousand rounds a year, I believe cheating is at a minimum, most games and most casinos play by the rules. But every once in a while I encounter a situation that just doesn't feel right. Some I figure out, Some I don't and just move on to games that I feel more comfortable with.
But I am not going to ignore decades of casino industry cheating and dismiss cheating as a thing of the past that never occurs either. And for those that argue there is no need for casino cheating because they have the odds in their favor, I offer two words: Human Greed, a trait that appears constantly throughout the ages.
And yes there are some AP's that also conclude that this kind of behavior can't or doesn't occur in 2019. But there are also AP's, especially experienced AP's that play a lot, that have encountered situations where they know something is wrong. As a very experienced player on another site stated "you can just feel when something is not right" (referring to results and distribution of cards). THAT is really what experience is. You know something is wrong before you even realize exactly what it is.
Now, I am not saying this kind of thing or other discussed things occur regularly, because I don't believe they do. Nor am I prepared to accept everything Nightshifter says as gospel. As a player that plays 70-100 thousand rounds a year, I believe cheating is at a minimum, most games and most casinos play by the rules. But every once in a while I encounter a situation that just doesn't feel right. Some I figure out, Some I don't and just move on to games that I feel more comfortable with.
But I am not going to ignore decades of casino industry cheating and dismiss cheating as a thing of the past that never occurs either. And for those that argue there is no need for casino cheating because they have the odds in their favor, I offer two words: Human Greed, a trait that appears constantly throughout the ages.
Nightshifter said:
Hello! I admit it's cheating in a legalized manner since we're still keeping all the cards ... you're just manipulating them under orders from the powers to be.
I admit it's cheating in a legalized manner since we're still keeping all the cards ... you're just manipulating them under orders from the powers to be.
Welcome to the forum, Nightshifter and I encourage you to keep participating.
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One thing to look for is how the Aces been falling in the game... are they following low cards as well as other Aces, or are they following high cards... referring about 2 Deck games primarily here... that 6/5 payout at single deck takes a good chunk of the players advantage away. If low cards are chunked … you'll get 2,2 3,3, 4,4 vs 2-6 and wind up splitting and or doubling in a bad situation since no high cards will come at the right time... if the high cards are chunked, you can bet that there are chunks of low cards as well … so just when you think the dealer will bust... he'll pat because most likely because he'll have a low card underneath... If a stray 10 does show itself, it'll usually pat the dealers hand unless he has 2,4.... Nevertheless, it's amazing how this all works out so well by doing something really rather simple once you get the grift of it Shuffle tracking would really exploit all of this on a hand shuffled game... As for ASMs used on 2D games (rather odd why they use an ASM on single and 2 deck games when the dealer can actually shuffle faster...), in series of bricks which can be altered between 5 to 10 cards, it'll preserve these chunks if not augment them as well. In that case card sequencing could be used to give heads up on what might be coming out next.... It's not that easy to do nor predict what a particular ASM is doing inside vs another ASM across the street. All of this is based on when the house manipulates the cards via some means to increase the drop, and you have the possibility of exploiting it.
Shuffle tracking would really exploit all of this on a hand shuffled game... As for ASMs used on 2D games (rather odd why they use an ASM on single and 2 deck games when the dealer can actually shuffle faster...), in series of bricks which can be altered between 5 to 10 cards, it'll preserve these chunks if not augment them as well. In that case card sequencing could be used to give heads up on what might be coming out next.... It's not that easy to do nor predict what a particular ASM is doing inside vs another ASM across the street. All of this is based on when the house manipulates the cards via some means to increase the drop, and you have the possibility of exploiting it.