KewlJ
Well-Known Member
Every class needs a clown.
New to counting, my story
- Thread starter Drake7
- Start date
Any new players reading this above quote must first understand that what is being said is coming from a very humble person, to say the least. The hard part that KJ talks about cannot be trivialized in any possible way, it is a real skill that few people can really control. Combining that part of the game with learning casino comportment, another way of saying how you present and conduct yourself in a casino looking natural under live conditions. Knowing casino tolerances, when to end a session is all a real skill that you won't find in books, and takes years of experience to really learn, and sometimes you still get it wrong. For myself, I have done well for a part-timer but I cannot imagine everything that is needed to do blackjack as a successful career. Hats off to those few amongst us who were determined to make it all worthwhile. Very humble indeed KJ.
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Tonight I tried to fully wong. I'm very friendly with the dealers and pits so I sat at a table and just talked. I waited to come in until a true 1 and left at -1. Used the spread cvcx said which was a 4% RoR. Made $370. It felt like it took an eternity and hardly played but it was pretty satisfying
ZenKinG
Well-Known Member
Leaving at -1 is not a 'full wong' as you put it. Entering in on a positive and never playing a negative count is what a 'full wong' is or as I like to say 'pure wonging'
Drake7, do not take what Zen King said above lightly, as he is making a strong point. True count frequencies percentages at a true count of zero are very high based on the game and pen, a good estimate for this TCF of zero is one out of every three hands, with the house holding the upfront edge percentage.
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
Yes, Zenking is correct. He has some good blackjack knowledge and can be a benefit to others when he stays away from the goofy stuff. 
So a pure Wong would be something like entering at TC +3 and exiting at TC +1 (about break even).
The advantages: You won't be playing many rounds but every round will be played at an advantage. You could even flat bet or use a very small spread making it more difficult to peg you as a card counter.
The disadvantages: You won't get in many rounds and it can quickly become pretty obvious what you are doing, especially if you are standing around tables that are pretty empty, which you really need in order to be sure you can jump in at the right moment.
While I decided early on that "pure" wonging in, as described above wasn't for me for the reasons given, a wonging "out" technique of playing off the top but exiting fairly aggressively on a mild negative count has obviously not all, but some of the benefit. You are avoiding the worst (disadvantage) counts. You play more and it looks more natural. You are not standing around, standing out and making other players feel uncomfortable. You do need to spread, but you can tone down your spread from what would be required for a play all situation.
So a pure Wong would be something like entering at TC +3 and exiting at TC +1 (about break even).
The advantages: You won't be playing many rounds but every round will be played at an advantage. You could even flat bet or use a very small spread making it more difficult to peg you as a card counter.
The disadvantages: You won't get in many rounds and it can quickly become pretty obvious what you are doing, especially if you are standing around tables that are pretty empty, which you really need in order to be sure you can jump in at the right moment.
While I decided early on that "pure" wonging in, as described above wasn't for me for the reasons given, a wonging "out" technique of playing off the top but exiting fairly aggressively on a mild negative count has obviously not all, but some of the benefit. You are avoiding the worst (disadvantage) counts. You play more and it looks more natural. You are not standing around, standing out and making other players feel uncomfortable. You do need to spread, but you can tone down your spread from what would be required for a play all situation.
Interesting how this forum software handles the ignore list differently than BJTF. Zenking is on my ignore list. I don't see any indication he's posted to this thread. On BJTF, the poster is listed, but the text is absent with a note about that poster being on the ignore list.
This is closer to what I was doing and will probably stick with it . I hardly played last night and the tables are pretty hard to be able to track 2 tables without being noticed so I have to pick a table with a fresh shoe and prayYes, Zenking is correct. He has some good blackjack knowledge and can be a benefit to others when he stays away from the goofy stuff.
So a pure Wong would be something like entering at TC +3 and exiting at TC +1 (about break even).
The advantages: You won't be playing many rounds but every round will be played at an advantage. You could even flat bet or use a very small spread making it more difficult to peg you as a card counter.
The disadvantages: You won't get in many rounds and it can quickly become pretty obvious what you are doing, especially if you are standing around tables that are pretty empty, which you really need in order to be sure you can jump in at the right moment.
While I decided early on that "pure" wonging in, as described above wasn't for me for the reasons given, a wonging "out" technique of playing off the top but exiting fairly aggressively on a mild negative count has obviously not all, but some of the benefit. You are avoiding the worst (disadvantage) counts. You play more and it looks more natural. You are not standing around, standing out and making other players feel uncomfortable. You do need to spread, but you can tone down your spread from what would be required for a play all situation.
Nice quote! That basically sums up what I am doing.
Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
Yes, Zenking is correct. He has some good blackjack knowledge and can be a benefit to others when he stays away from the goofy stuff.
So a pure Wong would be something like entering at TC +3 and exiting at TC +1 (about break even).
The advantages: You won't be playing many rounds but every round will be played at an advantage. You could even flat bet or use a very small spread making it more difficult to peg you as a card counter.
The disadvantages: You won't get in many rounds and it can quickly become pretty obvious what you are doing, especially if you are standing around tables that are pretty empty, which you really need in order to be sure you can jump in at the right moment.
While I decided early on that "pure" wonging in, as described above wasn't for me for the reasons given, a wonging "out" technique of playing off the top but exiting fairly aggressively on a mild negative count has obviously not all, but some of the benefit. You are avoiding the worst (disadvantage) counts. You play more and it looks more natural. You are not standing around, standing out and making other players feel uncomfortable. You do need to spread, but you can tone down your spread from what would be required for a play all situation.
Hello KJ! I agree with you about Wonging (why JF chose that name i'll never know) but what if you're being mislead by a chipped shuffle master that subverts any BS / Counting Strategy? You enter a game when a true count that you decide upon is reached only to find that the TC keeps going up to some excessively high level like +15, yet the 10's or maybe a lone 10 here and there appear? I was a BJ dealer, and when I was pitching a hand held game, I would purposely keep a "chunk" of 10s and Aces in an area that most people would cut out and wind up behind the cut card via offset shuffling. You really see this in 2 Deck games when the running count will get to about +26 to 30 and those double downs of 7,3 8,2 8,3 are being hit with 2,3,4s then the dealer is small in the hole and finally a 10 comes out and he wipes the entire table. Chunks of 2,3,7,8s will give some double down hands with poor results for the player. Chunks of A,2,3,4 9's and 10's produce a lot of bad combinations... then you'll see chunks of 5,6,7,8s sometimes when that happens. Chunks of 7,8,9s produce a lot of multiple split hands with poor results not to mention you'll be breaking on 12s a lot later on. 10,2,10,3 chunks are another one... I remember you said that you witnessed some interesting results, maybe even disturbing, when testing a particular shuffle master machine you had in your possession? I use the word chunks, because at the casino, the pit boss would tell me to chunk the deck if I started to dump.
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
Never heard of such a thing, Nightshifter. Please tell us more.
Seriously, I appreciate you reaching out to me both publicly and privately, Nightshifter, but you will understand my skepticism at a member who in this first post, says some of the things you are stating. I mean your comments involving "chunking" (interesting term) amount to an admission of cheating, both personally and by the direction of the industry. There are some in this community that immediately dismiss and more any such comments to a voodoo section.
I am not being dismissive of what you are saying, but I would like to hear more, especially from a "newer" member.
Midwest Player
Well-Known Member
Looks like we have a cheating dealer here. I suppose you also expected tips, and then screwed them anyway.
I mean your comments involving "chunking" (interesting term) amount to an admission of cheating, both personally and by the direction of the industry. There are some in this community that immediately dismiss and more any such comments to a voodoo section.
I am not being dismissive of what you are saying, but I would like to hear more, especially from a "newer" member.
I am definitely not dismissing what Nightshifter is saying, and would also like to hear more on the subject.
Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
Hello!
I admit it's cheating in a legalized manner since we're still keeping all the cards ... you're just manipulating them under orders from the powers to be. Not all dealers can and do this, but you do have your coolers believe me... The main thing you would do in the beginning is push together the like cards (since each deck are in a new cards order) in the wash in order to get it all going right from the top... it's easier that way. This is done on occasion. Honestly, most of the players do not tip at all... and I'm not kidding when I actually would hear other dealers say that "I hope we knock the sh#t out of them tonight" because they were sick of this. You were more important to the house if you hold back cards under the cut card then rely on a few nickels and dimes from the players, although tipping to turn the tables does work Now I"m not saying this for all players, just a majority of them in casinos I've worked at... Same thing with the 8 Deck games. If the cards are already chunked up from the wash, then doing an offset shuffle (just watch hand shuffled games) will perpetuate them throughout the game. This will work for some time and give the house a tremendous edge for a while till it soaks out. You gotta look at the big picture... it doesn't matter how many players or how they play, it's the fact that cards are being held out of the game or kept in chunks to subvert basic strategy / counting. It all works because most players play one way and the house plays another... Again, it's the sole effect on the house take, and it doesn't always work the way intended, but overall percentage wise it's a detriment to the norm. Chunking Aces together is the easiest to do and prevents the occurrence of Blackjacks, esp. if you keep them away from the 10's and together with the low cards. If a bunch of aces come out at once, and the player gets a pair, they'll split, get more aces or low cards, and the dealer will pat and wipe him/her out. It's not that it happens this way all the time, it just happens more of the time which increases the drop in the long haul. Another method is to encourage stiff hands. The chunk of high cards are at the top or bottom before shuffling (based on where the slug was put at the end of the session) and the deck would be stripped. If done correctly, this would form a high low sequence of cards. You preserve this slug via an offset shuffle thus getting rid of the 10s chunk at the same time. Should I even be talking about this here since it's considered voodoo among the APs? I"m just here to give some insight and help other players become aware of these actions. I don't deal drugs... err I mean cards no more... just bringing some of my experiences on the table.... KewlJ did bring up some very important issues with the ASMs that really need to be addressed by the community IMHO. Overall, you guys are considerably brilliant players in which you get my utmost respect because making a living at BJ is not an easy quest... especially these days.
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
I did not say these discussions and the possibility of this behavior is considered voodoo among the AP's in the community. I said on one popular forum any discussion of this nature immediately gets moved to a voodoo section, with that particular administrator/owner taking a stance that no such activity occurs in today's environment. A stance that if one chooses to take, he must completely dismiss a century of history of this exact type of behavior involving the casino industry.
And yes there are some AP's that also conclude that this kind of behavior can't or doesn't occur in 2019. But there are also AP's, especially experienced AP's that play a lot, that have encountered situations where they know something is wrong. As a very experienced player on another site stated "you can just feel when something is not right" (referring to results and distribution of cards). THAT is really what experience is. You know something is wrong before you even realize exactly what it is.
Now, I am not saying this kind of thing or other discussed things occur regularly, because I don't believe they do. Nor am I prepared to accept everything Nightshifter says as gospel. As a player that plays 70-100 thousand rounds a year, I believe cheating is at a minimum, most games and most casinos play by the rules. But every once in a while I encounter a situation that just doesn't feel right. Some I figure out, Some I don't and just move on to games that I feel more comfortable with.
But I am not going to ignore decades of casino industry cheating and dismiss cheating as a thing of the past that never occurs either. And for those that argue there is no need for casino cheating because they have the odds in their favor, I offer two words: Human Greed, a trait that appears constantly throughout the ages.
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
Hello!
Oh and btw, what you are describing, if true, is NOT "cheating in a legalized manner". It is cheating and illegal. To manipulate the cards and game in a manner so as to change the odds is cheating and illegal.
Welcome to the forum, Nightshifter and I encourage you to keep participating.
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Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
Only on single deck... At the 2 Deck tables, chances are a counter would be unknowingly betting into a false count if the 10s are behind the cut card.... Learning to recognize something isn't right and leave at that particular table takes experience as KewlJ mentioned
Nightshifter
Well-Known Member
One thing to look for is how the Aces been falling in the game... are they following low cards as well as other Aces, or are they following high cards... referring about 2 Deck games primarily here... that 6/5 payout at single deck takes a good chunk of the players advantage away. If low cards are chunked … you'll get 2,2 3,3, 4,4 vs 2-6 and wind up splitting and or doubling in a bad situation since no high cards will come at the right time... if the high cards are chunked, you can bet that there are chunks of low cards as well … so just when you think the dealer will bust... he'll pat because most likely because he'll have a low card underneath... If a stray 10 does show itself, it'll usually pat the dealers hand unless he has 2,4.... Nevertheless, it's amazing how this all works out so well by doing something really rather simple once you get the grift of it Shuffle tracking would really exploit all of this on a hand shuffled game... As for ASMs used on 2D games (rather odd why they use an ASM on single and 2 deck games when the dealer can actually shuffle faster...), in series of bricks which can be altered between 5 to 10 cards, it'll preserve these chunks if not augment them as well. In that case card sequencing could be used to give heads up on what might be coming out next.... It's not that easy to do nor predict what a particular ASM is doing inside vs another ASM across the street. All of this is based on when the house manipulates the cards via some means to increase the drop, and you have the possibility of exploiting it.
Shuffle tracking would really exploit all of this on a hand shuffled game... As for ASMs used on 2D games (rather odd why they use an ASM on single and 2 deck games when the dealer can actually shuffle faster...), in series of bricks which can be altered between 5 to 10 cards, it'll preserve these chunks if not augment them as well. In that case card sequencing could be used to give heads up on what might be coming out next.... It's not that easy to do nor predict what a particular ASM is doing inside vs another ASM across the street. All of this is based on when the house manipulates the cards via some means to increase the drop, and you have the possibility of exploiting it.