1st base vs 3rd base

[peaegg]

I read about the advantages sitting at the third base. It allows you to see more cards before making a playing decision. But I wonder if it was tested by a simulation. Since switched from Hi-lo to Zen, I found the count changes quite dramatically. For example, it could be RC +20 to a negative number just in a round, if most of the seven hands getting 20s. My observations made me think if the first base has some advantages in betting spread, since first base's cards should be more correlated to the count before the round is dealt. Have you seen tens and aces were given to the first couples seats when you put a max bet but only getting a soft hand at the third base? If AP's most advantages should come from the bet spread, not from knowing the playing index, I thought 1st base could have a higher advantage. Any thoughts on that?

Peaegg (I am new here. the handle means "naughty boy" in another language)

 

[aslan]

I read about the advantages sitting at the third base. It allows you to see more cards before making a playing decision. But I wonder if it was tested by a simulation. Since switched from Hi-lo to Zen, I found the count changes quite dramatically. For example, it could be RC +20 to a negative number just in a round, if most of the seven hands getting 20s. My observations made me think if the first base has some advantages in betting spread, since first base's cards should be more correlated to the count before the round is dealt. Have you seen tens and aces were given to the first couples seats when you put a max bet but only getting a soft hand at the third base? If AP's most advantages should come from the bet spread, not from knowing the playing index, I thought 1st base could have a higher advantage. Any thoughts on that?

Peaegg (I am new here. the handle means "naughty boy" in another language)

Like you, I always choose third base or next to third base. First of all, I like to wait for all the cards to be dealt before I make my count, because so many cancellation groupings appear making it very simple to adjust the RC. Like you I like to see as many cards as possible before I make a playing decision. It only stands to reason that you are helped by using the latest information available. A few cards can mean the difference between ramping up or ramping down, or between BS and an index play. Last, I don't mind taking the "heat" at third base by hitting what others believe is a stand decision, or vice versa. Maybe some of them will go to another table when I stand on 16 against a dealer ten in positive territory. That's good, because I like to play two hands in positive counts.

 

[21forme]

I prefer the middle of the table. If at first or third base, if someone else sits down, you're less likely to be able to spread to 2 hands. If you're in the middle, it's more likely you'll have a spot open next to you.

 

[peaegg]

I prefer the middle of the table. If at first or third base, if someone else sits down, you're less likely to be able to spread to 2 hands. If you're in the middle, it's more likely you'll have a spot open next to you.

Good point. Never thought of that. But that lead to another question. How do you guys deal with negative comments about adding an extra hand? I usually wouldn't add a hand unless the TC is above 3 and I lost the last hand. But still the players and sometimes the dealer will say that I messed up the table. How would you deal with that situation?

 

[aslan]

I prefer the middle of the table. If at first or third base, if someone else sits down, you're less likely to be able to spread to 2 hands. If you're in the middle, it's more likely you'll have a spot open next to you.

That's certainly true. I sit there a lot, but prefer left of center when available. I do dread first base, although a number of the pros prefer it as I recall from former threads (I can't remember why).

 

[aslan]

Good point. Never thought of that. But that lead to another question. How do you guys deal with negative comments about adding an extra hand? I usually wouldn't add a hand unless the TC is above 3 and I lost the last hand. But still the players and sometimes the dealer will say that I messed up the table. How would you deal with that situation?

I never had anyone say anything. It bothered me once two weeks ago when I switched to two hands and one of them got a BJ. But no one said anything and I also realized on second thought that that BJ wouldn't necessarily go to someone else if I had only played one hand. They might have gotten Ace-deuce for example.

 

[Canceler]

My observations made me think if the first base has some advantages in betting spread, since first base's cards should be more correlated to the count before the round is dealt.

No. Picture this: A new round is about to be dealt. The next X number of cards in the shoe are going to be dealt to the players and the dealer, but no one knows what order these cards are in. If you did know, you could choose the best place to sit. Since you don't know, it doesn't matter where you're sitting.

 

[bj bob]

And one more reason...

That's certainly true. I sit there a lot, but prefer left of center when available. I do dread first base, although a number of the pros prefer it as I recall from former threads (I can't remember why).

Why I prefer "shortstop" If your're sitting at third and someone sits right next to you, you are boxed in. If you sit next to third you can take advantage of the "in between" spots and have enough room to spread to two hands. Lots of subtle advantages there, especially in SD and DD games.

 

[aslan]

Why I prefer "shortstop" If your're sitting at third and someone sits right next to you, you are boxed in. If you sit next to third you can take advantage of the "in between" spots and have enough room to spread to two hands. Lots of subtle advantages there, especially in SD and DD games.

What is shortstop. Center or just left of third base? A lot of times if I sit next to third base, it is so crowded that no one wants to squeeze into the third base position, partly because it backs up against the next table and partly because I try to make it a small space by how I sit.

 

[21forme]

Good point. Never thought of that. But that lead to another question. How do you guys deal with negative comments about adding an extra hand? I usually wouldn't add a hand unless the TC is above 3 and I lost the last hand. But still the players and sometimes the dealer will say that I messed up the table. How would you deal with that situation?

Happens sometimes, but I just shrug it off, as I do when guys complain about messing with the flow, etc.

 

[EasyRhino]

As Canceler mentioned, the "lag" until you get your cards shouldn't be significant. In addition, even first base has lag, the second card of the hand doesn't come out until 50% of the cards at the table have been dealt.

This does, however, point out on another way that playing at a full table is crappy. You don't get much opportunity to size your bets optimally.

I don't often sit at third base, it's just too stereotypical. Although I will if that's what it takes to give me the room to spread to two hands.

 

[peaegg]

CVDATA shows 1st seat won more than last seat

The game is 6D S17 DAS splits to up to 4 hands except aces.
the count is zen with about 25 index
1st, 3rd, and 4th players spread bets from 1-12 with the following scale
<-2, wonging out
<2, 1 unit ($10), one hand
3, 2 units start playing two hands
4, 4 units
5, 8 units
>6, 12 units

2nd player just have 1-6 spread, one hand only, since CVDATA is limited to 7 hands per round.

Here are two sets of results from two sims of 250,000,000 rounds.


Player Sim 1 win rate/h sim2 win rate/h
1 30.02 29.02
2 3.06 3.16
3 29.05 28.51
4 29.09 28.34

so I think the first seat is superior.

 

[ihate17]

The wonderful logic of blackjack players

Good point. Never thought of that. But that lead to another question. How do you guys deal with negative comments about adding an extra hand? I usually wouldn't add a hand unless the TC is above 3 and I lost the last hand. But still the players and sometimes the dealer will say that I messed up the table. How would you deal with that situation?[/QUOTE


This statement reminds me of one of the more "head scratching" comments I heard from a dealer lately.
Plaing double deck I hit a count above +5 on what will be the last hand of the round and spread to two large bets. I win and I believe the other player on the table also wins. Perhaps 10 or 15 minutes later, the dealer winning almost every single hand comments, "your spreading to two hands completely changed the karma at this table." That was two shuffles earlier but rather than appear to be someone who is actually alive and aware, I give the dealer a "guess so."
Next time the count rockets and I want to spread, I just play the karma game and now I am adding hands to try and go from bad to good karma. Even asked my dealer if she thought it might be a good idea since the cards had been poor for a couple of rounds. She tells me not to play two, but play three. Got a 1.5 hand win as got a blackjack, a winner and a loser on the three and thanked the dealer for her cosmic advice.

ihate17

 

[aslan]

Maybe that's why I've heard pros say they like the first seat. I just never knew why.

 

[nightspirit]

The game is 6D S17 DAS splits to up to 4 hands except aces.
the count is zen with about 25 index
1st, 3rd, and 4th players spread bets from 1-12 with the following scale
<-2, wonging out
<2, 1 unit ($10), one hand
3, 2 units start playing two hands
4, 4 units
5, 8 units
>6, 12 units

2nd player just have 1-6 spread, one hand only, since CVDATA is limited to 7 hands per round.

Here are two sets of results from two sims of 250,000,000 rounds.


Player Sim 1 win rate/h sim2 win rate/h
1 30.02 29.02
2 3.06 3.16
3 29.05 28.51
4 29.09 28.34

so I think the first seat is superior.

I think it would be easier to let all the other players use basic strategy and no bet spread, then run 2 to 5 billion (2000-5000.000.000) rounds. This result should then reflect the seat effect better.

 

[jon]

A few cards can mean the difference between ramping up or ramping down, or between BS and an index play. Last, I don't mind taking the "heat" at third base by hitting what others believe is a stand decision, or vice versa. Maybe some of them will go to another table when I stand on 16 against a dealer ten in positive territory.

Definately agree on the index play. I dont know about the bet ramp because you bet with the same information as first base (no cards have been dealt). It does help on splits and DD, so I guess it affects betting a little.

I agree with the "taking the heat." Not only do some players leave, but sometimes it makes you look like a complete idiot standing on a 16 vs. 10 when the deal saves his hand by receiving a low hit and hole card.

 

[aslan]

Good point. Never thought of that. But that lead to another question. How do you guys deal with negative comments about adding an extra hand? I usually wouldn't add a hand unless the TC is above 3 and I lost the last hand. But still the players and sometimes the dealer will say that I messed up the table. How would you deal with that situation?[/QUOTE


This statement reminds me of one of the more "head scratching" comments I heard from a dealer lately.
Plaing double deck I hit a count above +5 on what will be the last hand of the round and spread to two large bets. I win and I believe the other player on the table also wins. Perhaps 10 or 15 minutes later, the dealer winning almost every single hand comments, "your spreading to two hands completely changed the karma at this table." That was two shuffles earlier but rather than appear to be someone who is actually alive and aware, I give the dealer a "guess so."
Next time the count rockets and I want to spread, I just play the karma game and now I am adding hands to try and go from bad to good karma. Even asked my dealer if she thought it might be a good idea since the cards had been poor for a couple of rounds. She tells me not to play two, but play three. Got a 1.5 hand win as got a blackjack, a winner and a loser on the three and thanked the dealer for her cosmic advice.

ihate17

Great story!

 

[Mimosine]

i think as a counter you shouldn't be so worried about these things. the maths show that the advantage is small. if you're a new counter you might want to start off at 1st or 3rd, to understand the rhythm of the game. but sometimes conditions dictate that only 2nd will be open, so what do you do? you play second.

 

[aslan]

i think as a counter you shouldn't be so worried about these things. the maths show that the advantage is small. if you're a new counter you might want to start off at 1st or 3rd, to understand the rhythm of the game. but sometimes conditions dictate that only 2nd will be open, so what do you do? you play second.

Ain't that the truth!

 

[peaegg]

I think it would be easier to let all the other players use basic strategy and no bet spread, then run 2 to 5 billion (2000-5000.000.000) rounds. This result should then reflect the seat effect better.

Flat bet will take away the advantage that I suspect the 1st base player has. Imagine near the end of a shoe with high count and max bet, I think the chance for the first seat to get a natual 20 is greater than 3rd base. Let me ask this question, after you see a TC reaching 6, how often do you see the count goes higher vs goes lower? Chances are the count will go down near the end of the shoe. So the first base player will get cards more like what the player predicated when he lays down the bet, no matter the first card or the second card.

Since my last post, I did another sim. The result was just like the second sim. So unless I did something wrong, I think there is a differenece between these two seats. I wish some experts will test this out as well. Of course life is not always ideal and the differences between all seats are small. I will not hesitate to sit anywhere when the penetration is good.

Sorry for the long message.