Economics of Card Counting
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moo321
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I think so.
zengrifter
Banned
Its a private joke, and I used in neutrally, you worthless gaijin. zHa! you called him a hairy barbarian!
ghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaijin
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gamblingghost
Well-Known Member
Ha, politically correct definition. I lived in Japan for a little over 2 years
all together and they told me what they think it means. Originally, 'hairy barbarian' is what it meant. Yohan Dictionary says 'strange' person. That is
an older dictionary and of course the newer ones just say 'outside person'.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Don't come to Foxwoods expecting to find drunken louts giving away their money! You'll find plenty of doctors and lawyers... who have read plenty of good poker books. It's very difficult to make any money in the poker room there.
zengrifter
Banned
That would apply to the Syph, I believe. zg
zengrifter
Banned
The Syph says to play at 3am. zg
Zg: You are making me chuckle, stop that.
Auto: I think the term "expect" is tripping you up, if I added "to see" (as in attaining an actual return equivalent to half your expectation) perhaps that would make things more clear for you. And once that is accomplished, you will see that I gave a simple rule of thumb that takes into account your "vary-ance". No calculator needed. As for your non sequitur that finished things off, I'll just write that off as more Monkey weirdness. Something that adds little to the discussion, doesn't follow any of the conversation, but somehow exists nonetheless.
Moo321: I tend to agree with you. Of course, it's a very situational sort of thing, and painting all poker players with a single stroke is as unfair as doing the same with BJ players. That said, I think if we look at social class, education, and income, over a broad range of stakes, poker players will generally eclipse blackjack players. And not by a little.
***
On poker:
I, personally, found poker to be a far more social and engaging group dynamic to operate in. Once I discovered that people were not there for money, but other needs, the game opened up. Angel Largay emphasizes that once you meet the needs of others, they will meet yours. On this note, I had a rather nice compliment today after stacking a chap:
"Syph, of all the people here, I like losing to you the best."
Part of my job at the poker table is to provide the best experience possible for those who play with me They are paying a fair amount to be there, and I don't want anyone to leave unhappy. They can leave broke, in fact I expect them to leave broke, but not unhappy.
Never unhappy.
Now, I get that a few of you have had some negative experiences at the table, and this has colored your view of the game. However, this simply tells me you somehow were acted on and allowed yourself to slip into a victim's role. There's not much EV in that. In poker or any game.
All the best,
Syph
Is anyone taking this dweeb seriously? he made 20k playing 1-2NL in a few months in the summer? That is $30/ hr even if you played until your ass was sore and your balls swelled up every day.Even if that were true it is pathetic. Did you sleep under the table? God forbid you left that stinky room for an hour to engage in a social activity or touch a boob. My guess is that you don't need friends or sex to make you happy. Good luck with that.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
No, I expect to see my EV. When I see more than that, I'm very happy. When I see less, I'm less happy. Each happens about 50% of the time. If you are expecting to see less than your EV, you are miscalculating your EV or malpracticing on your game. One of the benefits of BJ over poker is that your BJ EV is reasonably calculable before you get to the casino, unlike a poker game which will vary from "gold mine" to "you might not beat the rake" and you won't know which until you've played for an hour.
Not trying to be mean or insulting, but if you were expecting to see half of your EV from counting, that might explain why you didn't enjoy your experiences as a counter. You're not talking about the useless metric "certainty equivalent," are you?
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Sonny
Well-Known Member
I'm fairly certain Syph isn't going to bother responding to this juvenile attack so I feel obligated to stand up. I've been taking him seriously since before Ken opened these message boards. I'm glad I did. The guy gives away free money every time he posts. Any card counter can learn a lot from him. He has quite a few gems on Snyder's website as well. It's worth looking into.
-Sonny-
zengrifter
Banned
Our unabridged dictionary defines 'dweeb' as "studious and boring, a geek or a nerd."
Really that would not accurately describe the unique coolness of the Syph, but nothing to get riled over. z
g
Maestro
Active Member
I wholeheartedly agree with Sonny, Syph's posts on Snyders website have been not only entertaining, but a large part in my growth as a counter.
Thank you for the kind words, gentlemen (and Zg). Nonetheless, as I did award the Hello Kitty! Vader to Buzzard, I think he's allowed to bite back a little. And yes, Buzzard, it was a very long summer. The hourly return was $26.08/hr. Four months, ~800 hours. Now, this alone is nothing to write home about. However, the approach I took was relatively unique and allowed me to play a winning game from the first session onwards, with *negligible* downswings ($125/hr variance).
So how was it done?
Pretty simple, I became a systematic ratholing bastard.
I would buy in short, play exceptionally tight (1-2 hands per hour), and upon doubling up, would cash out and move to the next poker room. I circled among 3-5 poker rooms throughout the night to work around the 1-2 hour time delay in place for buying in for the minimum again.
Such a strategy is virtually unbeatable ... regardless of the stakes. Sklansky in NLTAP concurs. At the lower limits, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Dan Harrington built his bankroll this way when he first started playing 5-10 NL. Barry Greenstein often buys in short, and speaks well of the strategy.
Essentially, you skip reads, tells, psychology, and whatnot, and beat the game with raw math (preferably with the human element at it's weakest). However, I know from past experience that I cannot convince anyone to give it a try. Even my poker acquaintances, most of which whom went broke that summer, didn't have the patience for it. On that note, I believe I have a the unofficial record for longest time sitting at 1-2 without playing a single hand:
3.5 hours.
I was card dead, and after the second hour simply treated it as any other discipline. Now some might argue the merit in this, however I recall James once telling me that early in his career, he waited the entire night for a dealer to flash a next-card Ace. Shucks, I got off easy. I only had to wait half that long for two of 'em.
(and yes, they were cracked)
But generally speaking, every hour or two I would make a small profit, then cash out, and drive to a new poker room and sit down relatively fresh with a min buy in. From this, I witnessed first hand the decline in lucidity and rationality that occurred as the evening wore on and desperation set in. I was shielded from this as I had a flexible route laid out that would take advantage of all the free meals throughout the night.
God did that food suck.
Anyway, that's the story behind my $20K summer at 1-2 poker. There is more to it, but that's probably enough for a blackjack forum, lol. On this note, if I do come across somewhat dismissive of counting, I can assure you it's not without cause. I have spent the better part of the last decade supporting myself solely as an advantage player (with the occasional sojourn in Asia), and romanticism towards any given technique begins to wane when it no longer provides a minimum standard of food, shelter, comfort, and pretty girls in summer dresses
Especially pretty girls in summer dresses.
All the best,
Syph
(ps Monkey, much to be said on this topic. Alas, I must sleep now. More later.)
So how was it done?
Pretty simple, I became a systematic ratholing bastard.
I would buy in short, play exceptionally tight (1-2 hands per hour), and upon doubling up, would cash out and move to the next poker room. I circled among 3-5 poker rooms throughout the night to work around the 1-2 hour time delay in place for buying in for the minimum again.
Such a strategy is virtually unbeatable ... regardless of the stakes. Sklansky in NLTAP concurs. At the lower limits, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Dan Harrington built his bankroll this way when he first started playing 5-10 NL. Barry Greenstein often buys in short, and speaks well of the strategy.
Essentially, you skip reads, tells, psychology, and whatnot, and beat the game with raw math (preferably with the human element at it's weakest). However, I know from past experience that I cannot convince anyone to give it a try. Even my poker acquaintances, most of which whom went broke that summer, didn't have the patience for it. On that note, I believe I have a the unofficial record for longest time sitting at 1-2 without playing a single hand:
3.5 hours.
I was card dead, and after the second hour simply treated it as any other discipline. Now some might argue the merit in this, however I recall James once telling me that early in his career, he waited the entire night for a dealer to flash a next-card Ace. Shucks, I got off easy. I only had to wait half that long for two of 'em.
(and yes, they were cracked)
But generally speaking, every hour or two I would make a small profit, then cash out, and drive to a new poker room and sit down relatively fresh with a min buy in. From this, I witnessed first hand the decline in lucidity and rationality that occurred as the evening wore on and desperation set in. I was shielded from this as I had a flexible route laid out that would take advantage of all the free meals throughout the night.
God did that food suck.
Anyway, that's the story behind my $20K summer at 1-2 poker. There is more to it, but that's probably enough for a blackjack forum, lol. On this note, if I do come across somewhat dismissive of counting, I can assure you it's not without cause. I have spent the better part of the last decade supporting myself solely as an advantage player (with the occasional sojourn in Asia), and romanticism towards any given technique begins to wane when it no longer provides a minimum standard of food, shelter, comfort, and pretty girls in summer dresses
Especially pretty girls in summer dresses.
All the best,
Syph
(ps Monkey, much to be said on this topic. Alas, I must sleep now. More later.)
aslan
Well-Known Member
:laugh: :laugh: :whip: :whip:
aslan
Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone is trying to make himself feel better. There are plenty of games you can play doctors, lawyers, businessmen, and yes, they are all subject to have some guy living out of his car. I happen to have known dozens of these guys who might be playing poker and living in their cars, and I have news for you, they don't deserve anyone's compassion. The best thing that can happen to the majority of them is to go bust, which will give them a chance and incentive to reset their priorities and reorder their lives in a more reasonable manner. Yes, there are a few who are really good poker players, and they will soon be out of their cars. But for the majority, it is an unspeakable kindness to be responsible for ending their self-delusions about their potential for earning a living at anything other than a 9 to 5 job, Maybe as a CPA, or maybe as a Walmart greeter-- I'm not making any judgments as to their school learning or training.I personally found some of your comments in this thread to be offensive and unworthy of a response, so I refrained from such. However, I will comment on this one.
You aren't just taking from doctors. :laugh: Many poker players are people who are financially in a bad way. I personally know a couple that live in their cars during bad times and live in weekly motels during good. :sad: In a sense you are preying on weak and needy individuals much the same as casinos do. Now that's OK. You are not responsible for the decisions that these folks have made, nor the position they have put themselves in, but don't kid yourself into thinking you are taking from doctors and lawyers, just to make yourself feel better. A BJ AP is taking profits from the casino. A poker AP is taking from the other players!
I don't mean to get off on you, KJ-- but many gamblers have developed a false sense of morality that makes them feel guilty about beating certain hapless individuals. Like an alcoholic, many of these persons need to hit rock bottom before they can see reality and what they are doing to themselves. Unwittingly losing money at a non-advantage pursuit is the best thing that can happen to a person, the sooner the better.
The really guilty are the media that paints poker as a easy way to fame and riches, to win the million dollar tournaments, to win big money gambling at cards. The truth is, poker is an extremely difficult skill to acquire in the sense of a top professional, and a lifetime of work at it will not ensure your rise to the top. The flash in the pan winners are just that; they won't put bread on the table for long.
aslan
Well-Known Member
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
Every once in a while someone says something where bells go off and bright lights flash! Suddenly you know someone has said something that has been sitting under your nose for the longest time, maybe even used by you, yet you never thought of before or realized why it worked. This is one of those rare moments!
blackriver
Well-Known Member
[x] great thread
[x] matter of fact, dry humor
[x] syphs posts are worth a read
[x] matter of fact, dry humor
[x] syphs posts are worth a read
Automatic Monkey
Banned
It works both ways too. I've heard poker players tell me how much they enjoy taking money from "doctors and lawyers" (invariably, these are guys who never finished college) while there's a shoe game going on in the next room dealt down to half a deck, and I tell them "Have fun, I'm going to try my luck at blackjack." It appears some people are in the business to show how smart they are, superior they are, whatever, trying to compensate for something else that's missing, and that just doesn't lead to a good place.
We've got to remember that in the casino we are angels treading on the land of fools. That place and the culture within was never intended for us. It's a place for people with double-digit IQ's and bad habits. I don't care if it's "throw down" at the blackjack table or ego in the poker room, we should be flying miles above all of that.
Blackriver: Thank you for the props, they are always appreciated. In regards to your query, I could tell you ... but I'd have to kill you.
Auto: Your views appear to be the product of someone who spends more time online than at the tables. I fear there is no possibility of any rapport between us, nor is there any interest on my behalf of engaging in one. This is as polite as I can be.
Aslan: You bring up an number of interesting topics which give rise to others. There is no doubt that in the larger picture, my chosen profession has questionable value to society. Advantage play, generally speaking, suffers from this. This is not such a problem for libertarian socialists (re: anarchists) such as Alienated (whom I have a tremendous respect for), but for other more moderate souls. How one rationalizes their lifestyle is a very personal matter. Even more so as one moves away from lofty ideals to the reality of the tables.
Truth be told, I do not enjoy taking money from some people, it is an occupational hazard. Others, I confess to a certain levity after stacking (generally speaking, the ones that can afford it. Doctors and drug dealers come to mind). However, how I feel is largely irrelevant. This is a game with it's own set of norms and values in place. In the end, I found my relation to it mirrored that of a gunslingers role, in the Wiki sense of the term:
I even started wearing a cowboy hat.
There are times when I wonder if the kindest thing I can do is hit someone hard, and send them back home to their family. However, that speaks to a form of arrogance and skill that I don't possess. Truth is, I'm just a small town advantage player that has capitalized on a few logistics at the poker tables.
And you'll still find me at the occasional single pass.
Anyway, I best return to my world. This has, as always, been a welcome break. Thank you for the comments, and I wish you all the best.
Kind regards,
Syph
Auto: Your views appear to be the product of someone who spends more time online than at the tables. I fear there is no possibility of any rapport between us, nor is there any interest on my behalf of engaging in one. This is as polite as I can be.
Aslan: You bring up an number of interesting topics which give rise to others. There is no doubt that in the larger picture, my chosen profession has questionable value to society. Advantage play, generally speaking, suffers from this. This is not such a problem for libertarian socialists (re: anarchists) such as Alienated (whom I have a tremendous respect for), but for other more moderate souls. How one rationalizes their lifestyle is a very personal matter. Even more so as one moves away from lofty ideals to the reality of the tables.
Truth be told, I do not enjoy taking money from some people, it is an occupational hazard. Others, I confess to a certain levity after stacking (generally speaking, the ones that can afford it. Doctors and drug dealers come to mind). However, how I feel is largely irrelevant. This is a game with it's own set of norms and values in place. In the end, I found my relation to it mirrored that of a gunslingers role, in the Wiki sense of the term:
I even started wearing a cowboy hat.
There are times when I wonder if the kindest thing I can do is hit someone hard, and send them back home to their family. However, that speaks to a form of arrogance and skill that I don't possess. Truth is, I'm just a small town advantage player that has capitalized on a few logistics at the poker tables.
And you'll still find me at the occasional single pass.
Anyway, I best return to my world. This has, as always, been a welcome break. Thank you for the comments, and I wish you all the best.
Kind regards,
Syph
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