Indices for wongers
- Thread starter moo321
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callipygian
Well-Known Member
I'll post the data if requested, but when I investigated this before, the results were that any I18 list will basically hold as a qualitative measure; just drop the negative count indices. There's no secret play that suddenly becomes super-profitable when you include Wonging, although the most profitable plays do switch around. Insurance is always the most important index.
The Callipygian "10" - a mixture of what is most profitable for my bet spread minus things I consider too suspicious to play (e.g. splitting TT vs. 5,6).
Insurance
Surrender 15 vs. A (if S17)
Surrender 15 vs. 9
Surrender 14 vs. 10
Double 11 vs. A (if S17)
Double 10 vs. 10
Double 9 vs. 7
Double 9 vs. 2
Stand 16 vs. 10
Stand 12 vs. 3
Stand 12 vs. 2
The Callipygian "10" - a mixture of what is most profitable for my bet spread minus things I consider too suspicious to play (e.g. splitting TT vs. 5,6).
Insurance
Surrender 15 vs. A (if S17)
Surrender 15 vs. 9
Surrender 14 vs. 10
Double 11 vs. A (if S17)
Double 10 vs. 10
Double 9 vs. 7
Double 9 vs. 2
Stand 16 vs. 10
Stand 12 vs. 3
Stand 12 vs. 2
Here are 25 positive index plays I seem to use most.
...HAND..............T/C..........PLAY
..8 vs. 5.............+3...............D
..8 vs. 6.............+2...............D
..9 vs. 2.............+1...............D
..9 vs. 7.............+3...............D
10 vs. 10...........+5...............D
10 vs. A.............+4...............D
11 vs. A.............+1...............D
12 vs. 2.............+3...............S
12 vs. 3.............+2...............S
15 vs. 10...........+4...............S
16 vs. 9.............+5...............S
16 vs. 10.............0...............S
A/2 vs. 4...........+3...............D
A/3 vs. 4...........+1...............D
A/5 vs. 3...........+3...............D
A/6 vs. 2...........+1...............D
A/7 vs. 2...........+1...............D
A/8 vs. 4...........+3...............D
A/8 vs. 5...........+1...............D
A/8 vs. 6...........+1...............D
7/7 vs. 8...........+3...............Spl
9/9 vs. 7...........+3...............Spl
10/10 v 5..........+5...............Spl
10/10 v 6..........+5...............Spl
Insurance.........+3.5
..
Thank you very much, Mr. Renzey! Even though I use KO, there are a few of these I can add to my repertoire. :grin:
Edit: More than a few, like about 7 of them.
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sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
yep thats golden!
just curious why the +3.5 for insurance? usually i think of it as 3 .
callipygian
Well-Known Member
My opinion is that most counters should be playing with "counter's basic strategy" all the time, and consider the misplays between the Wong-out point and +2 to be cover plays.
Always stand on 16 vs. 10
Always double 9 vs. 2
Always double 11 vs. A (even if S17)
Always double A7 vs. 2 (even if S17)
Always double A6 vs. 2
These might cause you to fail a basic skill check which is the first step of counter detection.
moo321
Well-Known Member
This is good. I didn't even know there was a positive index for 77 v. 8!
bj bob
Well-Known Member
Is that only for a DAS game? I thought that play was already BS for that game unless you're referring to nDAS. Confused.
jack.jackson
Well-Known Member
And scary it is! especially w/max bets. Fortunately they occur less with max bets on the table. I split'em @ -1> DAS. Hit Ndas. Even with high counts they're still not that profitable, and can be a little risky, depending on your BR.
What I still can't understand, is the BS plays for single deck, 33vs8&66vs7,DAS.
But yet, Ive never seen Indices for these plays, in any count system.
(It would seem if their BS plays, for single deck, their would at least be Indexes for them, for more decks?)
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
it's in Wong's Professional Blackjack. for instance multiple deck s17das
77vs8 split at tc>=5 .
to me it's just one of those that doesn't seem to make sense but works lol. but i guess it's a kind of sense of logic if you think how bs departures sort of extrapolate. like say double 11 vs all dealer up cards except ace but then double ace if tc>=1, or A6v2, don't double except tc>=1 but you doubled A6v3,4,5,6 . so you kind of suspect changes in tc is gonna make A6v2 a candidate for a departure. so like 7,7v2,3,4,5,6,7 is a go and what's next in line? the 8 . sort of thing like that. but like you say the why's and wherefores i dunno
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would you rather have a 14 v 8 on a moderately high TC like +3 and have to hit it? or would you rather start with 2 hands of a 7 each and possibly draw a 3 or a 4 for a double, or an ace for soft 18. by splitting you can possibly improve the hard 14 vs a pat hand. seems to me this isnt a play meant to make money but to lose less money in the long run, kind of like splitting 8s vs 10.
blackjack avenger
Well-Known Member
Causing a Rukus
I agree with Rukus that some indices are meant to lose less. They are referred to as defensive splits.
I agree with Rukus that some indices are meant to lose less. They are referred to as defensive splits.
Well duh!
Thank you, rukus. Of course that has to be right. I never even considered it from that angle. :whip:
callipygian
Well-Known Member
8 decks, 75% penetration, H17, DAS, DA2, RSall, LS.
Values are expressed as millionths of an EV (e.g. 1507 = 0.001507).
Indices are rounded up to the nearest whole number (which is why insurance is +4).
Apologies if the formatting gets screwed. I'm copying and pasting from an Excel sheet. (Edit: Fixed! :grin: )
Values are expressed as millionths of an EV (e.g. 1507 = 0.001507).
Indices are rounded up to the nearest whole number (which is why insurance is +4).
Apologies if the formatting gets screwed. I'm copying and pasting from an Excel sheet. (Edit: Fixed! :grin: )
Code:
Type Player Dealer Index no Wong Wong -1 Wong +1
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ins any 1 4 484 599 1507
Hard 16 10 1 214 265 667
Hard 12 3 1 94 116 293
Surr 14 10 4 71 88 222
Split 10 6 4 55 68 171
Hard 12 4 -1 52 10 0
Hard 11 1 -1 43 13 0
Surr 15 9 3 41 51 129
Hard 9 2 1 35 44 110
Hard 12 2 3 32 40 100
Hard 13 2 -2 25 0 0
Surr 88 10 2 19 24 60
Soft 19 5 2 19 24 59
Hard 8 6 2 19 23 59
Hard 12 5 -2 19 0 0
Hard 9 3 -2 18 0 0
Soft 13 5 1 17 21 54
Hard 15 10 5 13 16 40
Hard 10 1 3 13 16 40
Hard 9 7 4 10 12 30
Soft 19 6 -1 10 3 0
Hard 10 9 -2 10 0 0
Split 8 1 1 9 11 28
Hard 10 10 4 8 10 25
Hard 16 1 4 8 10 25
Split 10 5 5 8 10 24
Hard 13 3 -3 8 0 0
Surr 16 8 4 7 8 20
Surr 77 10 4 6 8 19
Hard 8 5 4 5 6 16
Soft 19 4 4 5 6 16
Soft 14 4 3 5 6 15
Split 4 5 -1 5 1 0
Soft 20 6 4 4 4 11
Soft 15 4 -1 4 1 0
Soft 18 2 -1 4 1 0
Hard 9 4 -3 4 0 0
Soft 17 2 2 3 4 10
Split 9 1 3 3 3 8
Split 3 2 -1 3 1 0
Soft 14 5 -2 3 0 0
Hard 12 6 -4 3 0 0
Split 4 4 3 2 3 8
Soft 13 4 4 2 3 7
Surr 14 1 5 2 3 7
Split 5 1 3 2 2 6
Hard 16 9 5 2 2 5
Split 9 7 4 2 2 5
Split 5 9 -2 2 0 0
Hard 13 4 -5 2 0 0
Split 5 10 4 1 2 4
Soft 16 3 4 1 1 3
Soft 20 5 5 1 1 2
Split 6 2 -3 1 0 0
Soft 13 6 -3 1 0 0
Hard 14 2 -5 1 0 0
Hard 9 5 -5 1 0 0
Split 2 8 4 0 0 1
Surr 77 1 5 0 0 1
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UK-21
Well-Known Member
Question for Mr Renzey.
Doesn't hitting an A-8 against a dealers 4,5 or 6 stick out a little bit and draw some heat? These are plays that are also listed in the KISS-3 indices. On the surface, nobody but a seasoned player (who knew that the odds had shifted in the table's favour?) would risk a pretty sound 19 hand? From the table provided by Callyipgian above these would seem to have very little advantage.
Should these plays be reserved for the greedy-wreckless times when being busted isn't such a big deal, ie last day of a trip to Vegas?
Newb99
Doesn't hitting an A-8 against a dealers 4,5 or 6 stick out a little bit and draw some heat? These are plays that are also listed in the KISS-3 indices. On the surface, nobody but a seasoned player (who knew that the odds had shifted in the table's favour?) would risk a pretty sound 19 hand? From the table provided by Callyipgian above these would seem to have very little advantage.
Should these plays be reserved for the greedy-wreckless times when being busted isn't such a big deal, ie last day of a trip to Vegas?
Newb99
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kewljason
Well-Known Member
A8 vs 5,6
I have felt that way about A8 vs 5,6 for a long time. even posted a threat about such http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=6156 I feel it is similar to splitting 10's. While certainly profitable if done at correct indicies, it draws heat from pit and other players. Now I could give a rats a** what the other players feel, but when they grumble and moan, That can i n fact draw attention. The case of A8 vs 5,6 happens less frequently that splitting 10's, however the index is lower as well which means it may come in to play more often. As a matter of fact I guess it is basic strategy to DD A8 vs 6 in H17 game. Ploppies never make this play. as a matter of fact I personally have only seen this play made (other than myself) twice in my playing carreer, however, I play mostly in atlantic city and try to avoid H17 games, which is becoming more difficults as fewer and fewer hit soft 17 games remain all the time.
Personally as with splitting tens, I wait until a higher count than called for to make this play. That way I am probably leaving the table at the conclusion of the shoe anyway. I feel it adds playing longevity. Courious to hear other's opinions.
I have felt that way about A8 vs 5,6 for a long time. even posted a threat about such http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=6156 I feel it is similar to splitting 10's. While certainly profitable if done at correct indicies, it draws heat from pit and other players. Now I could give a rats a** what the other players feel, but when they grumble and moan, That can i n fact draw attention. The case of A8 vs 5,6 happens less frequently that splitting 10's, however the index is lower as well which means it may come in to play more often. As a matter of fact I guess it is basic strategy to DD A8 vs 6 in H17 game. Ploppies never make this play. as a matter of fact I personally have only seen this play made (other than myself) twice in my playing carreer, however, I play mostly in atlantic city and try to avoid H17 games, which is becoming more difficults as fewer and fewer hit soft 17 games remain all the time.
Personally as with splitting tens, I wait until a higher count than called for to make this play. That way I am probably leaving the table at the conclusion of the shoe anyway. I feel it adds playing longevity. Courious to hear other's opinions.
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cardcounter0
Well-Known Member
I actually had a pit boss sweating my heads up action at a Double Deck S17 game, when with about a +3 count and a $200 bet out I got A8 vs 6.
Following conversation occurred:
cc0:"Now this is an interesting hand. What does the 'book' say to do?"
pit: "I would stand"
cc0: "that sounds like basic strategy, but I have been running real good, I'm up about $1000."
pit: "yes, I've been watching, you have had a good run"
cc0; "go big or go home. It's time to gambooooooowl!!!!! I double down."
pit: "it's your money, but I would still say stand"
cc0 (after winning hand): "wow, that was some good luck"
pit: "yeah, if a duece had come up, I would suspect something"
PS> for DD s17: 7,7 vs 8 split is basic strategy, although it is another move that you should yell "It's time to gambooooooowl!!!!!" when you do it.
Following conversation occurred:
cc0:"Now this is an interesting hand. What does the 'book' say to do?"
pit: "I would stand"
cc0: "that sounds like basic strategy, but I have been running real good, I'm up about $1000."
pit: "yes, I've been watching, you have had a good run"
cc0; "go big or go home. It's time to gambooooooowl!!!!! I double down."
pit: "it's your money, but I would still say stand"
cc0 (after winning hand): "wow, that was some good luck"
pit: "yeah, if a duece had come up, I would suspect something"
PS> for DD s17: 7,7 vs 8 split is basic strategy, although it is another move that you should yell "It's time to gambooooooowl!!!!!" when you do it.
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