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DoubleOnHard20

Well-Known Member
#1
Why should you pay to get CVData or CVCX when someone who already has it can just post full indices onto this forum? I was only able to find about 90 of the full Hi-Lo indices online. It should not be so difficult to find them. It would be way more efficient if indices for the most common card counting systems were posted here. That is what I plan on doing for Hi-Lo.

It's frustrating that every person who has bought CVData is selfish and only uses it to get the indices they need. If one person who has it would post the indices on this forum, everyone who uses the same system can use what they posted and not get CVData.

What I have so far:
6 Deck, S17, DAS, LS
1561072030309-png.9076

1561072090478-png.9077

1561497980805-png.9083


6 Deck S17 without DAS

1561497583821-png.9082


6 Deck S17 without LS

1561315107890-png.9080


H17 is almost identical to S17 except for vs Dealer 6 or A. I will post those differences if I can get them. Nobody on this forum has helped me with this.

I just shared more indices on this forum than anyone else ever has. You guys are really selfish. I know it takes a long time to get all of them, but at least get the ones I requested in this post so that I can post a finished chart for H17: https://www.blackjackinfo.com/community/threads/6-deck-h17-playing-deviations.56183/
 
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BJgenius007

Well-Known Member
#2
DoubleOnHard20 said:
Why should you pay to get CVData or CVCX when someone who already has it can just post full indices onto this forum? I was only able to find about 60 of the full Hi-Lo indices online. It should not be so difficult to find them. It would be way more efficient if indices for the most common card counting systems were posted here. That is what I plan on doing for Hi-Lo.

It's frustrating that every person who has bought CVData is selfish and only uses it to get the indices they need. If one person who has it would post the indices on this forum, everyone who uses the same system can use what they posted and not get CVData.
Norm will email moderator of this forum to delete this post because all indices are copyrighted. You cannot just post them. Norm got permission from all index creators for those indices to be used in his software.
 
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#4
DoubleOnHard20 said:
Why should you pay to get CVData or CVCX when someone who already has it can just post full indices onto this forum? I was only able to find about 60 of the full Hi-Lo indices online. It should not be so difficult to find them. It would be way more efficient if indices for the most common card counting systems were posted here. That is what I plan on doing for Hi-Lo.

It's frustrating that every person who has bought CVData is selfish and only uses it to get the indices they need. If one person who has it would post the indices on this forum, everyone who uses the same system can use what they posted and not get CVData.

What I have so far:
6 Deck, S17, DAS, LS
View attachment 9076
View attachment 9077
View attachment 9078

6 Deck S17 without DAS
View attachment 9079

H17 is almost identical to S17 except for vs Dealer 6 or A. I will post those differences if I can get them. Nobody on this forum has helped me with this.

I just shared more indices on this forum than anyone else ever has. You guys are really selfish. I know it takes a long time to get all of them, but at least get the ones I requested in this post so that I can post a finished chart for H17: https://www.blackjackinfo.com/community/threads/6-deck-h17-playing-deviations.56183/
mind sending them to me via pm so i can pass them around if you get banned?
 

DoubleOnHard20

Well-Known Member
#6
BJgenius007 said:
Norm will email moderator of this forum to delete this post because all indices are copyrighted. You cannot just post them. Norm got permission from all index creators for those indices to be used in his software.
I found these ones online though so this post shouldn't be removed. I made the basic strategy chart with the indices I found online myself. There's no reason for what I posted here to be removed if the indices are copyrighted.

People have used CVData to answer specific questions about certain plays on this forum. Those posts haven't been removed.
Doubling down on soft 21: https://www.blackjackinfo.com/community/threads/when-to-double-down-on-a-soft-21.55885/#post-496209
Surrendering 88: https://www.blackjackinfo.com/community/threads/index-for-8-8-v-9-anyone.15828/
Splitting Pairs (Single Deck): https://www.blackjackinfo.com/community/threads/splitting-deviations-for-hi-lo.12542/

If people can give indices for specific plays, they can give the full indices, and someone can post them.
 
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johndoe

Well-Known Member
#7
BJgenius007 said:
Norm will email moderator of this forum to delete this post because all indices are copyrighted. You cannot just post them. Norm got permission from all index creators for those indices to be used in his software.
He might email, but I'm not so sure that indicies can be copyrighted. Facts cannot be copyrighted, and that's especially clear with mathematical facts. Also, even if they could be copyrighted, he is not the copyright owner, and therefore has no legal standing to complain.

Norm also claimed "copyright infringement" against someone quoting a post in another forum, for purposes of discussion and critique, something allowed without question. So he clearly is no expert in this area, and is stupidly trigger-happy.
 

DoubleOnHard20

Well-Known Member
#8
LC Larry said:
A9 vs 5 and 6 can't be correct. There are certainly indices to double for those plays.
Yeah there are. I don't know what they are though. Would be great if someone could tell me. I'm working on 8 basic strategy charts with full playing deviations for 6 deck:

S17, DAS, LS
S17, DAS
S17, LS
S17

H17, DAS, LS
H17, DAS
H17, LS
H17

Most of the indices are exactly the same across all of these 8 games. Only a few change.

H17 changes the indices against a dealer 6 or A. Against a 2-5 it only changes a little bit, not enough to be noticeable.
DAS only effects splitting pairs.
LS replaces hard hit stand decisions against 7-A.
 

DoubleOnHard20

Well-Known Member
#9
johndoe said:
He might email, but I'm not so sure that indicies can be copyrighted. Facts cannot be copyrighted, and that's especially clear with mathematical facts. Also, even if they could be copyrighted, he is not the copyright owner, and therefore has no legal standing to complain.

Norm also claimed "copyright infringement" against someone quoting a post in another forum, for purposes of discussion and critique, something allowed without question. So he clearly is no expert in this area, and is stupidly trigger-happy.
Even if indices could be copyrighted, I got all of these online for free. There's no reason for what I posted here to be removed. I just put it all together in one place to make it more convenient.
 
#12
BJgenius007 said:
This topic has been discussed in Norm's forum. He said the indices are indeed copyrighted.
So facts can be copyrighted? This makes no sense. It makes sense that screenshots of the software are copyrighted. But how can the actual indices where you make the playing deviations be copyrighted?

1+1=2
I'm about to be sued.
 

MrFatCat

Well-Known Member
#13
I don't know that you're about to be sued -- you're correct in that facts/ideas cannot be copyrighted.

On the other hand, you can very easily get banned from this forum -- you agreed to T&Cs when you signed up, and my guess is proliferating their content without permission is a no-no.
 

BJgenius007

Well-Known Member
#14
DoubleOnHard20 said:
So facts can be copyrighted? This makes no sense. It makes sense that screenshots of the software are copyrighted. But how can the actual indices where you make the playing deviations be copyrighted?

1+1=2
I'm about to be sued.
It is not the same thing. 1+1=2 is straightforward. Someone made lots of efforts to calculate those indexes. It is like you bought a book. Then you said, "Don't buy that book. I post online so you can read it free." The author got no compensation for his or her efforts to write that book.
 
#15
BJgenius007 said:
It is not the same thing. 1+1=2 is straightforward. Someone made lots of efforts to calculate those indexes. It is like you bought a book. Then you said, "Don't buy that book. I post online so you can read it free." The author got no compensation for his or her efforts to write that book.
The software that calculates the indices is like a calculator for blackjack. The indices that you get are not copyrighted, but the coding that went into developing the software is. It would be illegal to distribute the software for free, but not to just share indices generated by the software.

It's like if someone bought a calculator and used it to find the answer to a hard math problem. They can share that answer with others, but they can't steal the coding and programming that went into designing the calculator and give it to others.

Indices are just answers to tough math problems. If someone has CVData, share the answers. It's not illegal.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#16
BJgenius007 said:
This topic has been discussed in Norm's forum. He said the indices are indeed copyrighted.
What Norm says has no bearing on what is correct, especially in copyright matters. He's not remotely an authority on such matters, and is well known to be completely off his rocker in this area.
 

BJgenius007

Well-Known Member
#17
DoubleOnHard20 said:
The software that calculates the indices is like a calculator for blackjack. The indices that you get are not copyrighted, but the coding that went into developing the software is. It would be illegal to distribute the software for free, but not to just share indices generated by the software.

It's like if someone bought a calculator and used it to find the answer to a hard math problem..
"It is like a calculator" is a bad example. The complicate process is a combination of arts and science. You give anyone a calculator, he or she cannot come up with the indexes using the calculator. You need to pay for the software for the usage of software to produce such indexes. If you just copy the results, it is theft.

If you can come up with a set of similar but slightly different indexes using pencil and calculator or a program you wrote, you can post your set of indexes at will.
 

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#18
BJgenius007 said:
"It is like a calculator" is a bad example. The complicate process is a combination of arts and science. You give anyone a calculator, he or she cannot come up with the indexes using the calculator. You need to pay for the software for the usage of software to produce such indexes. If you just copy the results, it is theft.

If you can come up with a set of similar but slightly different indexes using pencil and calculator or a program you wrote, you can post your set of indexes at will.
Utter nonsense. Results of mathematical algorithms, i.e. mathematical truths, are not subject to copyright. Whether calculating them using a simple calculator or more complex calculator makes no difference whatsoever.
 
#19
johndoe said:
Utter nonsense. Results of mathematical algorithms, i.e. mathematical truths, are not subject to copyright. Whether calculating them using a simple calculator or more complex calculator makes no difference whatsoever.
I still don't understand how full Hi-Lo indices can't be found anywhere online for free even though it's the most common card counting system. I thought I would've found them somewhere on this forum. I wish people helped each other out more on here. I hope someone who has CVData sees this post and helps.
 

DSchles

Well-Known Member
#20
BJgenius007 said:
This topic has been discussed in Norm's forum. He said the indices are indeed copyrighted.
Norm and I discussed this via email. His reply to me follows.

Don

Actually kind of funny as he pulled indices from different sources. They aren’t accurate if you do that.:) But, silly to call me selfish. Anyone can download the CVData or CVBJ demo and get the published indices for free. Just not as accurate as creating new RA indices or customizing them for your own play. Basically, I’ve already created the free library that this poster says he wants to create turning BJInfo into a piracy site. Only I did it legally by getting authorization from every author, which wasn’t easy in some cases. The UN Declaration of Human Rights includes intellectual property rights. Anyone that doesn’t respect IP rights doesn’t respect human rights.

You’re welcome to post my response above.
 
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