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How do i calculate my true count if my casino only lets about 20 cards in the discard then puts it back in the shoe?I can calculate running count but not true count.I think it is a 6 deck game i am not sure,and how do i determine how many decks the casino uses.
To find out how many decks are in play, there are two reasonable choices. The easy one is to ask the dealer. The harder way is to be present at the table when they change the cards in the machine, and see how many decks are involved.
But the games you describe (using a continuous shuffle machine) are useless for card counting. Consider that you’ll need to reset your running count to zero every time they empty the discard tray. Let’s say in the first 20 cards you get an amazing running count of +11. That’s still not even a true count of +2, because you need to divide +11 by the number of decks waiting to be dealt (more than 5.5 decks, since 6 decks less 26 cards would be 5.5 decks, and we’ve only used up 20 instead of 26 cards.)
In short, don’t waste your time counting cards in this game. If you must play it, basic strategy is the best you can do, and you cannot get a long-term edge over the game.
The true count is always calculated by dividing the running count by the number of unseen decks that could yet be dealt. In a continuous shuffle machine game where only 20 cards are in the discard at most, that means your effective penetration is extremely low. Let’s say that 26 cards were in the discard tray, in a six-deck game. That means 5.5 decks are unseen. A running count of +11 would translate to a true count of +11/5.5 = +2. And you’ll need to reset the running count as soon as the
This sucks,how can it be possible that my casino in south africa is more prepared against card counting than the more advanced countries.I understand what you are saying this really sucks basic strategy isn’t going to bring the profits.
I just also want to ask how do i know if they use a csm or asm for shuffling and will i still be able to have that edge in counting if they use a asm?Sorry for all the questions i am a student that is really interested in this and would like to invest lots of time and practice counting.
An ASM (automatic shuffling machine) will use a standard discard tray, where most of the cards will be used. Then, all 6+ decks are put into the machine for a shuffle. It’s just a replacement for hand-shuffling after the shoe is used up.
A CSM (continuous shuffle machine) is constantly shuffling the cards between each hand. Used cards are usually accumulated only during the course of a hand, then immediately put back into the machine and shuffled back into the mix.
Card counting works fine with an ASM. In fact, because there is less downtime between shoes, it is a good thing.
A CSM on the other hand makes counting useless.
Hi Ken.
I had stated my plan earlier, $2500 Bank, $20 at TC+1 up to $50 at TC+4 on $10 min. table. You had said this is a reasonable approach, but after re-reviewing this lesson would it be more reasonable to wait until TC+2 before going to $20 as if I’m correct TC+1 would be even with the casino. My thinking on this is that the bank would last longer if there’s a negative streak.
Thanks,
Glen
You are correct that you are just at breakeven expectation at TC+1, so waiting until at least a slightly better true count before raising your bet is a good idea.
In reading back over my answer to your initial question, I want to expand on it. Your bet ramp is a reasonable approach for a small bankroll, but with only a 1 to 5 spread, you won’t actually have a positive expectation unless you leave in most negative counts. This kind of a limited bankroll/limited spread situation is only useful to take a shot at increasing your bank to a useful level. (If you’re even a little unlucky, you’ll likely lose the bank and have to build another.) This spread does not give you a sustainable profitable game. To beat a six deck game, you just need a bigger spread to overcome the house edge. I prefer at least 1 to 12, which would be $5 to $60, or $10 to $120.
It’s very hard to find a $5 table these days in the East, so I could do $10 (and that’s getting hard too) to $120. So then would the bet spread at TC+2 $20, TC+3 $30, up to $120 at TC+12?
Also would the bet spread or TC change at all if using the KO count instead of Hi-Lo (I just bought the Knock Out book)?
And last, I was thinking of taking a shot (like you said) at increasing to a new level using this small (Not really that small to me) bank and if I lose this bank, practice more while raising another bank. OR should I keep practicing while raising the correct bank ($6000 I believe) for this spread?
This site, your quick responses, and professionalism are very refreshing!
Thank you!
Glen
Thanks, you responded before I even posted my correction, lol.
And though I will read the entire KO book ( I know the formula already), I also just wanted to know if the KO TC becomes the same as in Hi-Lo?
Also, just to make sure I have it right, TC+2 $20, +3 $40, +4 $80, +5 $100, +6 $120?
KO does not require a conversion to true count, so it’s quite a bit easier to use. The betting process is quite a bit simpler, but still powerful.
Although this course from the GameMaster targets Hi-Lo (along with my advanced strategy cards), these days I usually recommend KO as a first count. It’s easy but strong.
And yes, you have the right conversion from the above table to your units.
You would use the full spread by the time you get to either TC+5 or TC+6.
Look at the final table in the lesson above. Multiply the amounts by two, and you’ll have a good $10 to $120 spread bet ramp, getting to $120 at TC+6.
As to whether to take a shot with $2500 or wait until you have $6000, only you can decide which you prefer. I would probably go ahead and start with the $2500, with the realization that early bad luck will mean waiting for more ammo.
I understand ken .thanks for the answer!i agree that first thing is to learn the basics.just for the info yesterday i was playing bj and counting everythink was ok 7 at 10 times my bets was correct and sometimes i was deviatied from basic strategy with good results for example is 12 vs 4 or in 12 vs 3.all that finished when they bring new dealer to the table.super super fast hands. I couldnt keep counting.even when i changed to last base as a player i was loosing the count.and her behaviour was very rude to me.
It seems impractical to get enough of a spread that way, and worse, you are at the mercy of another player’s decisions on how to play the hand! Since very few players know correct basic strategy, I wouldn’t recommend back-betting unless you know the person is very competent. Does it look more or less suspicious than betting on your spot? That depends on how common the practice is in your particular casino. In some casinos, backbetting is very popular. At others, it is rare.
Yesterday one guy in a local cazino made something very strange in bj.he took almost 10.000euro
The strange part of corse was that the game was with smc if i tell them correct.the machine that shaffle after every hand .
More strange was his bettings.he was betting for some rounds the minimum 10euro and after sudenly BOOM !!!200euro in each box.he was playing in two boxes and he decided BOOM maximum bets and sometimes he opend also a 3d box.he was taking all the time tens and ases.also the dealer was taking 10 but for some reason never an ace.when the party was over again only two boxes with 10 euro each for some hands and after 6 or 7 hands BOOM !!!maximum bets with 200euro and always 20 or bj.never again see something like that.the funny part was the 3 pit bosses and the floor manager that come running to that table and watching the game.i was also counting with hi/lo but of corse my counting was air !!!his method/counting was working perfect !!!
Yes, you are right that Flash is dying. My development of the new mobile-friendly HTML5 version has been stalled a bit while my family prepares to move this summer. After that I’ll be back on the job of replacing the current trainer with a new non-Flash version with tons of new features.
And yes, I get about an equal number of complaints about the game being rigged to be too easy and too hard. Players who are new to the game just don’t realize how long a lucky or unlucky streak can last. 🙂
Playing more spots in a negative count means making more minimum bets in a negative situation, and is not justified. Generally you would be better off with more spots in high counts, but it can depend on how close you are to the shuffle point among other things. I recommend just one spot regardless of the count until you are familiar enough with the game to run your own simulations to optimize multiple hands. The factors are not always obvious. In my own play, I almost always play only one spot. The main exceptions are when I am playing some kind of promotion.
How do i calculate my true count if my casino only lets about 20 cards in the discard then puts it back in the shoe?I can calculate running count but not true count.I think it is a 6 deck game i am not sure,and how do i determine how many decks the casino uses.
To find out how many decks are in play, there are two reasonable choices. The easy one is to ask the dealer. The harder way is to be present at the table when they change the cards in the machine, and see how many decks are involved.
But the games you describe (using a continuous shuffle machine) are useless for card counting. Consider that you’ll need to reset your running count to zero every time they empty the discard tray. Let’s say in the first 20 cards you get an amazing running count of +11. That’s still not even a true count of +2, because you need to divide +11 by the number of decks waiting to be dealt (more than 5.5 decks, since 6 decks less 26 cards would be 5.5 decks, and we’ve only used up 20 instead of 26 cards.)
In short, don’t waste your time counting cards in this game. If you must play it, basic strategy is the best you can do, and you cannot get a long-term edge over the game.
The true count is always calculated by dividing the running count by the number of unseen decks that could yet be dealt. In a continuous shuffle machine game where only 20 cards are in the discard at most, that means your effective penetration is extremely low. Let’s say that 26 cards were in the discard tray, in a six-deck game. That means 5.5 decks are unseen. A running count of +11 would translate to a true count of +11/5.5 = +2. And you’ll need to reset the running count as soon as the
This sucks,how can it be possible that my casino in south africa is more prepared against card counting than the more advanced countries.I understand what you are saying this really sucks basic strategy isn’t going to bring the profits.
I just also want to ask how do i know if they use a csm or asm for shuffling and will i still be able to have that edge in counting if they use a asm?Sorry for all the questions i am a student that is really interested in this and would like to invest lots of time and practice counting.
An ASM (automatic shuffling machine) will use a standard discard tray, where most of the cards will be used. Then, all 6+ decks are put into the machine for a shuffle. It’s just a replacement for hand-shuffling after the shoe is used up.
A CSM (continuous shuffle machine) is constantly shuffling the cards between each hand. Used cards are usually accumulated only during the course of a hand, then immediately put back into the machine and shuffled back into the mix.
Card counting works fine with an ASM. In fact, because there is less downtime between shoes, it is a good thing.
A CSM on the other hand makes counting useless.
Thanks will let you know if i have any luck thanks for the lessons
Hi Ken.
I had stated my plan earlier, $2500 Bank, $20 at TC+1 up to $50 at TC+4 on $10 min. table. You had said this is a reasonable approach, but after re-reviewing this lesson would it be more reasonable to wait until TC+2 before going to $20 as if I’m correct TC+1 would be even with the casino. My thinking on this is that the bank would last longer if there’s a negative streak.
Thanks,
Glen
You are correct that you are just at breakeven expectation at TC+1, so waiting until at least a slightly better true count before raising your bet is a good idea.
In reading back over my answer to your initial question, I want to expand on it. Your bet ramp is a reasonable approach for a small bankroll, but with only a 1 to 5 spread, you won’t actually have a positive expectation unless you leave in most negative counts. This kind of a limited bankroll/limited spread situation is only useful to take a shot at increasing your bank to a useful level. (If you’re even a little unlucky, you’ll likely lose the bank and have to build another.) This spread does not give you a sustainable profitable game. To beat a six deck game, you just need a bigger spread to overcome the house edge. I prefer at least 1 to 12, which would be $5 to $60, or $10 to $120.
It’s very hard to find a $5 table these days in the East, so I could do $10 (and that’s getting hard too) to $120. So then would the bet spread at TC+2 $20, TC+3 $30, up to $120 at TC+12?
Also would the bet spread or TC change at all if using the KO count instead of Hi-Lo (I just bought the Knock Out book)?
And last, I was thinking of taking a shot (like you said) at increasing to a new level using this small (Not really that small to me) bank and if I lose this bank, practice more while raising another bank. OR should I keep practicing while raising the correct bank ($6000 I believe) for this spread?
This site, your quick responses, and professionalism are very refreshing!
Thank you!
Glen
Sorry, my first question was suppose to read: So then would the bet spread be TC+2 $20, TC+3 $30, up to $120 at TC+12?
Thanks, you responded before I even posted my correction, lol.
And though I will read the entire KO book ( I know the formula already), I also just wanted to know if the KO TC becomes the same as in Hi-Lo?
Also, just to make sure I have it right, TC+2 $20, +3 $40, +4 $80, +5 $100, +6 $120?
KO does not require a conversion to true count, so it’s quite a bit easier to use. The betting process is quite a bit simpler, but still powerful.
Although this course from the GameMaster targets Hi-Lo (along with my advanced strategy cards), these days I usually recommend KO as a first count. It’s easy but strong.
And yes, you have the right conversion from the above table to your units.
You would use the full spread by the time you get to either TC+5 or TC+6.
Look at the final table in the lesson above. Multiply the amounts by two, and you’ll have a good $10 to $120 spread bet ramp, getting to $120 at TC+6.
As to whether to take a shot with $2500 or wait until you have $6000, only you can decide which you prefer. I would probably go ahead and start with the $2500, with the realization that early bad luck will mean waiting for more ammo.
I understand ken .thanks for the answer!i agree that first thing is to learn the basics.just for the info yesterday i was playing bj and counting everythink was ok 7 at 10 times my bets was correct and sometimes i was deviatied from basic strategy with good results for example is 12 vs 4 or in 12 vs 3.all that finished when they bring new dealer to the table.super super fast hands. I couldnt keep counting.even when i changed to last base as a player i was loosing the count.and her behaviour was very rude to me.
Ken when the tc is at least +2 i dont rase my bet i just betting also behind someones bet.u think this looks suspicious?
It seems impractical to get enough of a spread that way, and worse, you are at the mercy of another player’s decisions on how to play the hand! Since very few players know correct basic strategy, I wouldn’t recommend back-betting unless you know the person is very competent. Does it look more or less suspicious than betting on your spot? That depends on how common the practice is in your particular casino. In some casinos, backbetting is very popular. At others, it is rare.
PLEASE Take a look at this …..
Yesterday one guy in a local cazino made something very strange in bj.he took almost 10.000euro
The strange part of corse was that the game was with smc if i tell them correct.the machine that shaffle after every hand .
More strange was his bettings.he was betting for some rounds the minimum 10euro and after sudenly BOOM !!!200euro in each box.he was playing in two boxes and he decided BOOM maximum bets and sometimes he opend also a 3d box.he was taking all the time tens and ases.also the dealer was taking 10 but for some reason never an ace.when the party was over again only two boxes with 10 euro each for some hands and after 6 or 7 hands BOOM !!!maximum bets with 200euro and always 20 or bj.never again see something like that.the funny part was the 3 pit bosses and the floor manager that come running to that table and watching the game.i was also counting with hi/lo but of corse my counting was air !!!his method/counting was working perfect !!!
Ok ken.thanks
Yes, you are right that Flash is dying. My development of the new mobile-friendly HTML5 version has been stalled a bit while my family prepares to move this summer. After that I’ll be back on the job of replacing the current trainer with a new non-Flash version with tons of new features.
And yes, I get about an equal number of complaints about the game being rigged to be too easy and too hard. Players who are new to the game just don’t realize how long a lucky or unlucky streak can last. 🙂
Playing more spots in a negative count means making more minimum bets in a negative situation, and is not justified. Generally you would be better off with more spots in high counts, but it can depend on how close you are to the shuffle point among other things. I recommend just one spot regardless of the count until you are familiar enough with the game to run your own simulations to optimize multiple hands. The factors are not always obvious. In my own play, I almost always play only one spot. The main exceptions are when I am playing some kind of promotion.