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I’d really like to buy your cards, but you don’t have the specific card I need… Do you know the indices for a 4D, H17, DAS, No surrender, Peek, game? If not, do you know where I could find them (without buying $200 software….)?
Because KO is an unbalanced count, your ability to use indexes is sharply reduced. Really, if you want to use indexes with KO, they need to be generated exactly for your game. Changing the penetration will change the indexes. And you always have less accuracy for strategy variation when you don’t have a true count to use for it. KO is powerful and simple, but this is one of the downsides.
There is a new version of the KO book coming out soon. Perhaps it will talk more about this.
Just want to be sure I understand . . . it is possible in a game with only 75% penetration (standard deck and half cut out from a six deck shoe) to have a true-count north of +9, right. It doesn’t happen that often but there have definitely been times when 1/2 of the six deck shoe has been cashed and the running count is 20 thus making the true-count – if I understand your teachings correctly – +10, right?
Make sure you are including the cards behind the cut card in your unseen decks. In your example, when we are halfway through six decks, that means 3 decks have been dealt, and 3 decks are still unseen. It doesn’t matter that many of the unseen cards will never be used because they are behind the cut card. You still use them in the calculation. So a running count of +20 would convert to a true count of +20/3, or +6.66. With the same true count one deck later (4 decks used, 2 unseen), the true count would by +20/2 = +10.
I have been counting for about three years now using this course and made about 13K. Unfortunately, I have been banned from four casinos. Admittedly, I am constantly helping others and more or less always make the minimum bet . . . no fanny-pack, either.
I am presently using the Zen count, working on memorizing indices, and am coming up against a logic problem that my mind can’t seem to wrap itself around. In the index section involving hard doubles, the counts are as low as -19 (11v7). As a secondary note I am using the True count method, not the 1/4 deck True edge. The translation of this index, 11v7 stand @TC>-19 makes very little sense to me in logical analysis. In doubling down, it makes sense to avoid doing so at lower counts when more face value cards have been outweighed by the smaller cards available. However, unless I’m totally out to lunch on this one, this index specifies that I double against a seven, only at times where it would be terribly unlikely for me to receive a strong hand making card as well as being relatively advantageous to the dealer in advantage, and to avoid doing so, when the cards would be favorable to double as well. Am I interpreting this wrong, or is my logic simply wrong?
Also, thank you so much Ken for keeping up and running this sight. The information here has been invaluable on my card counting training, and has made for a greater resource than most of the money I will probably make in recreational play.
Secondary note, if there are any Tarantino fans out there, there are 88 indices to memorize for the Zen Count. Made my day ^_^
Indexes can be confusing because they mean different things for different decisions. The 11v7 index is a doubling index, where you should hit when the count is below the index, and double when the count is at or above the index number. In this case, that means hit 11v7 if the count is -20 or worse, and double 11v7 if the count is -19 or better. That should make sense to you.
While this specific conversation is about the Zen count (and users of Hi-Lo are probably thinking “-19, what?!”), the same principle applies to any system’s indexes. If you aren’t sure how to interpret the different types of indexes, I recommend my explanation under the header “What are the different kinds of Index Numbers?” on this page: https://www.blackjackinfo.com/card/advanced-strategy-card-instructions/
If I am playing in the European style, with no hole card and I am the last player in the table. I have 16 against a dealer 10. Basic strategy says you must hit. But in the European style, the next card can be for the player (if he hits) or for the dealer (if he stands). If the player hits good cards for the player are A, 2, 3, 4, 5. But, except for the Ace, all other is also good for the player since it is possible he bust with the next card. It is the same for a 15 against 10, or a 15 against 9 etc.
My question: Should I change the basic strategy in this case? In which cases.
Ignore any unseen cards. It essentially reduces penetration by one card. The new version of the trainer won’t have this issue. Thanks for reminding me!
Hi again Ken.
I was using your trainer with surrender as an option to practice BS and was going to practice a little counting as well but when surrendering it doesn’t show the dealer’s hole card. Is there a way to get it to show the dealers hole card or should I count it as a -1, or 0?
Good luck! Just remember, that 16vT advice is based on a game that offers surrender. If there is no surrender, then hit all the two-card 16s vs a dealer ten, and you can stand on any three-or-more-card 16s vs ten.
Thanks Ken. I read the article and I’ll do what your BSE says. I just wanted to make sure. My wife & friends are going to over me some strange looks when they see these plays.
I love your site,
Thanks again,
Glen
For 16vT, see the article I linked in my last reply.
For surrendering 17vA (correct when the dealer hits soft 17), well, 17 against an Ace is a very weak hand. It is made even worse when the dealer hits soft 17, because he cannot flip over a 6 for an immediate push on the hand. It’s just enough to swing the numbers slightly in favor of surrendering over standing. Again, that’s ONLY in the H17 game. In the S17 game, you should stand with 17vA.
All of these factors are included in the calculations for index numbers. You are right that in high counts the dealer is more likely to have pat 20. If he does, your decision to hit or stand is actually less important, because you could safely hit and still lose the hand. The same software I recommend for simulations (CVData from qfit.com) always allows you to verify all these kinds of things, and generate your own custom indexes.
That makes sense. Thanks for the quick response. Love your website
I’d really like to buy your cards, but you don’t have the specific card I need… Do you know the indices for a 4D, H17, DAS, No surrender, Peek, game? If not, do you know where I could find them (without buying $200 software….)?
Whoops, forgot to mention the key difference: I use KO, not Hi-Lo
Because KO is an unbalanced count, your ability to use indexes is sharply reduced. Really, if you want to use indexes with KO, they need to be generated exactly for your game. Changing the penetration will change the indexes. And you always have less accuracy for strategy variation when you don’t have a true count to use for it. KO is powerful and simple, but this is one of the downsides.
There is a new version of the KO book coming out soon. Perhaps it will talk more about this.
Thanks for that. I’ll just use the HiLo system in that case and get the cards. It’s worth it just to support this site!
Question: when I buy them, can you send them electronically or do I have to wait for them in the mail?
The cards are only available in physical form, and I have moved all distribution to Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0982119178/?tag=theblackjacbasic
Just want to be sure I understand . . . it is possible in a game with only 75% penetration (standard deck and half cut out from a six deck shoe) to have a true-count north of +9, right. It doesn’t happen that often but there have definitely been times when 1/2 of the six deck shoe has been cashed and the running count is 20 thus making the true-count – if I understand your teachings correctly – +10, right?
Make sure you are including the cards behind the cut card in your unseen decks. In your example, when we are halfway through six decks, that means 3 decks have been dealt, and 3 decks are still unseen. It doesn’t matter that many of the unseen cards will never be used because they are behind the cut card. You still use them in the calculation. So a running count of +20 would convert to a true count of +20/3, or +6.66. With the same true count one deck later (4 decks used, 2 unseen), the true count would by +20/2 = +10.
I have been counting for about three years now using this course and made about 13K. Unfortunately, I have been banned from four casinos. Admittedly, I am constantly helping others and more or less always make the minimum bet . . . no fanny-pack, either.
minimum bet a beginning of new shoe
I am presently using the Zen count, working on memorizing indices, and am coming up against a logic problem that my mind can’t seem to wrap itself around. In the index section involving hard doubles, the counts are as low as -19 (11v7). As a secondary note I am using the True count method, not the 1/4 deck True edge. The translation of this index, 11v7 stand @TC>-19 makes very little sense to me in logical analysis. In doubling down, it makes sense to avoid doing so at lower counts when more face value cards have been outweighed by the smaller cards available. However, unless I’m totally out to lunch on this one, this index specifies that I double against a seven, only at times where it would be terribly unlikely for me to receive a strong hand making card as well as being relatively advantageous to the dealer in advantage, and to avoid doing so, when the cards would be favorable to double as well. Am I interpreting this wrong, or is my logic simply wrong?
Also, thank you so much Ken for keeping up and running this sight. The information here has been invaluable on my card counting training, and has made for a greater resource than most of the money I will probably make in recreational play.
Secondary note, if there are any Tarantino fans out there, there are 88 indices to memorize for the Zen Count. Made my day ^_^
http://blackjackforumonline.com/content/Zen_Count_Indices.htm
Indexes can be confusing because they mean different things for different decisions. The 11v7 index is a doubling index, where you should hit when the count is below the index, and double when the count is at or above the index number. In this case, that means hit 11v7 if the count is -20 or worse, and double 11v7 if the count is -19 or better. That should make sense to you.
While this specific conversation is about the Zen count (and users of Hi-Lo are probably thinking “-19, what?!”), the same principle applies to any system’s indexes. If you aren’t sure how to interpret the different types of indexes, I recommend my explanation under the header “What are the different kinds of Index Numbers?” on this page: https://www.blackjackinfo.com/card/advanced-strategy-card-instructions/
If I am playing in the European style, with no hole card and I am the last player in the table. I have 16 against a dealer 10. Basic strategy says you must hit. But in the European style, the next card can be for the player (if he hits) or for the dealer (if he stands). If the player hits good cards for the player are A, 2, 3, 4, 5. But, except for the Ace, all other is also good for the player since it is possible he bust with the next card. It is the same for a 15 against 10, or a 15 against 9 etc.
My question: Should I change the basic strategy in this case? In which cases.
Ignore any unseen cards. It essentially reduces penetration by one card. The new version of the trainer won’t have this issue. Thanks for reminding me!
Hi again Ken.
I was using your trainer with surrender as an option to practice BS and was going to practice a little counting as well but when surrendering it doesn’t show the dealer’s hole card. Is there a way to get it to show the dealers hole card or should I count it as a -1, or 0?
Good luck! Just remember, that 16vT advice is based on a game that offers surrender. If there is no surrender, then hit all the two-card 16s vs a dealer ten, and you can stand on any three-or-more-card 16s vs ten.
Thanks Ken. I read the article and I’ll do what your BSE says. I just wanted to make sure. My wife & friends are going to over me some strange looks when they see these plays.
I love your site,
Thanks again,
Glen
For 16vT, see the article I linked in my last reply.
For surrendering 17vA (correct when the dealer hits soft 17), well, 17 against an Ace is a very weak hand. It is made even worse when the dealer hits soft 17, because he cannot flip over a 6 for an immediate push on the hand. It’s just enough to swing the numbers slightly in favor of surrendering over standing. Again, that’s ONLY in the H17 game. In the S17 game, you should stand with 17vA.
That’s the odd strategy chart situation that creates more mail than any other here.
See 16vT: RS. WTF?
All of these factors are included in the calculations for index numbers. You are right that in high counts the dealer is more likely to have pat 20. If he does, your decision to hit or stand is actually less important, because you could safely hit and still lose the hand. The same software I recommend for simulations (CVData from qfit.com) always allows you to verify all these kinds of things, and generate your own custom indexes.
For a visual example, see https://www.card-counting.com/cvcxonlineviewer3.htm
So far, I have not had time to rework Lesson 9 and it’s SD information. My sole focus right now is the new version of the trainer.